Throw me a friggin bone here

wrongpond · #1 03-30-2004, 12:58 AM

It's a 1-2 no-limit live game. I'm BB, pre-flop there's a late limper and the SB calls I check it (I've got K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) the flop comes 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I check it the limper makes it $4 the small blind raises to $8 I know I've got the SB beat so I make it $12 and think that should do it, but the limper comes back over the top with $25 more, I've got no read, and that $25 is the difference right now between leaving a winner and a loser, I fold, he shows me K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] the dealer shows us Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the turn and 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the river. I'm new to the game, especialy no-limit and am certain that my intuition exceeds my knowledge, rip into me plz.

suckafish

jdl22 · #2 03-30-2004, 01:38 AM

Welcome to the forums. You'll find a lot of help here 99.99999% of which will come from people other than me. If you read the threads here and post you will see your game dramatically improve but it does take some work and thinking.

To your hand. Preflop check is fine. Flop you have a strong hand with top pair second kicker, however it is very susceptible to draws. Anybody with a jack, queen, or ace could make a better pair on the turn and there could be a lot of straight draws with two consecutive cards there. You can't go for the check-raise here unless you are nearly 100% percent sure he will bet because giving a free card could hurt you so much. I would say put in a pot size bet. When you faced the bet and raise I would have put in a real raise. By real raise I mean pot sized. The min raise isn't going to get rid of anyone and looks a bit weak which is probably why the limper went back over the top.

In general playing No-Limit you don't have to get tricky and try to check-raise as often. Betting the pot normally takes away odds to chase so that's good enough.

The Dude · #3 03-30-2004, 02:41 AM

One thing to note is that stack sizes are very important in NL and it's very hard to give good advice without knowing both your stack size and those of the relevant opponents.

That said, I disagree with the above comment about check-raises. They are a beautiful thing in NL when you are out of position - if used correctly. They can be great to use when you have a made hand (that is vulnerable to draws), because you can get more money in the pot before you push people off their draws. They also can be a great semi-bluff tactic with a powerful draw. But you need to know stack sizes before you can say what the right move is.

There's something else I want to point out. Min-raises are almost never a good idea. Your hand is probably good on the flop, but your giny raise isn't enough to push anybody off even overcards. Your check-raise is probably a good idea, but you should be the one making it $25 to go.

Part of the reason for raising more is what you just experienced. LP is going to have a much harder time coming way over the top of you with a draw after such a healthy check-raise. Again, stack sizes could change some things here, but your min re-raise is what got you into this mess.

wrongpond · #4 03-30-2004, 03:35 AM

Your right, stack size is important, and I neglected to mention that I had about 2.5 times the late limper.

JKratzer · #5 03-30-2004, 05:16 AM

facing a check raise from the small blind, i think you should fold your hand. You have top pair, decent kicker, most people checkraise with hands that can beat top pair. True, this is a short handed play which could mean his standards are looser, but your hand isn't good enough to ball with in this situation so I would just fold and not get caught up in it in the first place.

Krytemaster · #6 03-30-2004, 08:09 AM

I would bet out about the pot here on the flop - not going for the checkraise unless you know almost for sure that late limper will come out betting here if checked to.

In your situation when SB min-raises late limper I would say either fold or a bigger raise. As The Dude pointed out your min-raise is way too small, you have to let the other guys pay to see the turn card. If you are quite sure that you have SB beaten this is a really good play that will put a lot of pressure on late limper.

Regarding late limpers raise to $25 - that seems really loose. Use this later on to your advantage!

Krytemaster

cnfuzzd · #7 03-30-2004, 01:07 PM

<<<and that $25 is the difference right now between leaving a winner and a loser, >>

It seems like this is an unhealthy attitude to have, especially in nl. You can not be afraid to lose money in no limit. You have to disassociate yourself from your stack. I would have at least called the reraise to see the turn, which would have given you a total of what, 14 outs, assuming villian didnt have A10, especially of clubs.

peace

john nickle

wrongpond · #8 03-31-2004, 12:23 AM

I check/raised the min. here on the flop because SB will pay a little more the see the turn (remember I'm sure I've got him beat) and I figured that my reraise will knock late limper out, but maybe it shoul've been up to $20 so it would've cost the late limper more to make the same play, and if he still makes the same move, then I know he's a fool and I just wait to nail him on another hand, sound like a solid way to go?

Krytemaster · #9 03-31-2004, 03:31 AM

The point of a bigger re-raise from you is both to make SB pay more to see the turn and to put late limper on some pressure. Even if you know you have SB beat you don´t want to give him a turn card that cheap. He could be in there with a straight draw and get to draw to it far too cheap, he could also hit two pair or set if he has a pair on the flop.

Krytemaster

wrongpond · #10 03-31-2004, 04:10 AM

Got it. Thanks Krytemaster.