Brutal Honesty

[Dick in Phoenix]

Hi, Al ... Nice to hear from you. I posted a note about San Jose a few years ago - I haven't looked up the link in the archives. I played once, on a business trip, at Bay 101 in a 3-6 hold'em game. It had a live drop on the button, which means that, if you stay and sit at the table, in addition to your 2 blinds, you post another $3 (another big blind at 3-6) on the button. At least it was live instead of dead!

I challenged in my post - can anyone claim a winning record in a game like this? Lee Jones? Anyone ??? I got no claims from anyone. I really cannot suggest a winning strategy for anyone at this game, even though it was very loose and stupid.

Dick

[Al Schoonmaker]

Dick,
Many years ago John Scarne wrote that it was impossible to beat a 5% rake unless new money kept coming into the game. Without that new money everybody would end up broke.
Now we routinely pay double that rake.
And lots of people wonder why they can't win.
Regards,
Al

[J.A.Sucker]

I don't think that most can beat the San Jose 3-6 games, though a top player could eke out a small profit - on the order of 4 bucks an hour or something. However, the 6/12 games are VERY beatable - you can play a lot of hands on the button and should play very tight in the SB. I know these games can be beaten, because I did for a significant amount back when I first got to town.

[haakee]

I think a good player can beat those games for $6/hour. People play really poorly, although a lot of your equity comes from their terrible preflop mistakes given that the pots are often big enough to justify very loose postflop play. My statistically insigificant records show me beating Bay Area 3-6 games for $6/hour after a few hundred hours. And I am a much better player now.

[southerndog]

Well put Ulysses...

So, you think good poker players are born, not made?

But, I think the fact that I am not a good natural player makes it more appealing to me. The challenge involved. Can I discipline myself to study and work at the game to be a better player? That's the challenge that I like.

[Joe Tall]

7 full days since this post.

Jason's stats:

SS posts - 7, only 4 strategy posts.
Re-responded to strategy posts - 0
Hands posted - 0

Zoo/Other posts - 14
Several re-responses.

It's up to you.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[ZootMurph]

I'm new to 2+2. This is my first post. There is a lot of sense in the post and many of the responses. Since it is story-telling time, I'll give you a quicky on my past...

I started playing after watching the WSOP on TV. I had played $1-$5 7 card stud in the Atlantic City casinos a few times, but just for fun. I didn't care about losing $50-$100. It was at this time that I thought that playing poker for a living was what I wanted to do. So I started going to AC and playing $2/$4 Hold 'Em. I was winning more often than losing, so I started playing $3/$6. I continued winning more often than losing. During this time, I met a player who told me about Doyle Brunson's Super System. I 'read' that book, and then started 'reading' other books. I moved up to $5/$10 and got KILLED. I had thought I knew it all, but I was soooo wrong.

So, I went back and started reading again, and realized many of my mistakes. The first mistake was tracking my play... I didn't do it. I created a bankroll, which was small, so I went back to $2/$4. I found that I was winning almost nothing, although I thought I was winning regularly. This was a big surprise. At this time, I went through what I think you are going through... is this what I want to do? Am I good enough? CAN I do it? etc.

What I found was that I DID have what it takes... to a certain extent, with the exception of concentration. I'd joke and chat and BS with people at my table, and forget about my play. I'd feel good, so I'd forget a lot of stuff I'd done right or wrong at the table. Once I found this out, and I started 'studying' books and my play, I fixed this problem and moved up pretty quickly... I played where my bankroll would allow, basically. Unfortunately, the mid-level games in Atlantic City are pretty stale... so I made a month long trip to Las Vegas to size up the games there. I lost my shirt! Back to the drawing board, LOL.

Now, my problems are twofold: a) making adjustments from game to game, and b) NOT worrying about the money I'm playing with. These are keeping me from moving up, and, quite frankly, will be difficult transitions. I'm learning, but it is VERY slow going.

Anyway, as has been stated here, getting crushed, whether in posting here or at the tables, gives you a LOT more opportunity to learn than winning or being right does. I've learned a LOT and improved my game immensely since I got started. I think I'm pretty much peaked out where I am... maybe I can go up a little more, but not much. This realization hurts the ego, but helps the pocketbook [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] But I'll manage, and you will too!

[Joe Tall]

Zoot,

You've come to the right place. Welcome to the forum.

since I got started. I think I'm pretty much peaked out where I am... maybe I can go up a little more, but not much

Post some hands, reply to some of the hands posted in the Small Stakes forum and soon you will realize how many levels their are.

Again, welcome,
Joe Tall

[Al Schoonmaker]

Let's look at the positive side.
1. You admitted that you made some serious mistakes.
2. You learned from those mistakes.
You may say, "so?," but many players don't admit their mistakes or learn from them.
3. You're keeping records, which most people don't do.
4. You realized that just reading books, even excellent ones, isn't enough, and you've implied that you're studying seriously.
5. You're posting here and being self-critical in your post.
6. You've accepted that your poor concentration is a huge obstacle to progress. More importantly, you've done something about it. I have a problem with concentration, and I have NOT fixed it, even though I know how destructive it is. So on this dimension you're ahead of me.
Hope to see you here again.
Regards,
Al

[MRBAA]

A little reality here: If you can't crush a 4-8 game consistently after a year, you probably have no shot at being pro. I'm an ad writer and went from never playing HE to never playing with my own money again (as a very part-time, recreational player) in about 9 months. And I'm nothing special. Joe Tall is way better, so's my poker buddy Randy, Guy on Tilt, Dynasty, Clarkmeister, the list goes on and on. It ain't hard, and it ain't mysterious. Know your odds and outs, learn player types and when in doubt play tighter. Fortunately for the winning players, most people can't do this (it still amazes me). Including many very smart ones. Maybe poker for you will just be a fun hobby and you shouldn't waste your youth trying to make it a job.