Trouble Spot with KK on the turn?

[Jamie Collins]

Party Poker 10-20. Slightly loose table so far but this is just my second orbit – this hand was not the norm.

Unknown UTG limps. UTG+1 raises - I’ve only seen a few hands played by UTG+1, seems slightly LA.

Unknowns in MP1 & 2 call.
I 3 bet with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the cutoff. Unknown Button 4bets. Straight forward BB calls. The rest call.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises. Call, call. I call. Button thinks a while and calls. BB calls.
Raise, cap – all call.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises. MP1 calls, MP2 drops. I drop.

I was disappointed in myself after the hand that I really was unclear as to:
1) flop call 1
2) flop call 2 of the cap
3) Turn fold

I actually thought about dropping on the flop but then might have had to cut off the finger used to click the mouse if my hand was good at that point.
Flop call 2 I think I was just calling for the K on the turn while planning to drop if I didn’t hit the K and if raising continued.

What did I put my opponents on? I don’t know – what do you put them on? They were pretty unknown to me. My best guess was UTG had a flush draw and UTG+1 had a set and the button had AA. But hell if I knew at that point.

Thanks for any comments Ladies and Gents.
Regards,
Jamie

[Nightwish]

I would have re-raised on the flop instead of calling 2 cold. There's no reason to believe that you're beat yet. It's quite possible that UTG has QQ or maybe even AJ, but you won't know it by playing that way. Instead, let's say you 3-bet and UTG caps. He leads out again on the turn, and if UTG+1 raises again, then you're probably far behind. (BTW, folding on the flop to just a single raise is completely out of the question.)

Anyway, there are 31.5 big bets in the pot by the time the action gets to you, but it's still not giving you enough to call 2 bets cold if you assume that you need to spike a K on the river. Unfortunately, you do NOT know if you need a K or not because of your poor flop play, but you're still forced to fold.

[Gabe]

I would have reraised the flop and/or reraised the turn. Untill I have done this, I would not assume I was beat even in a day-time vegas rock garden.

[cwl]

why didnt you 3 bet the flop?

[LivingLegend58]

But would you fold to a cap on the turn. Assuming he may have AA.

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response Gabe.

What range of hands do you put the collective of UTG, UTG+1, and Button on?

[Jamie Collins]

Thanks for the response Nightwish.

[ QUOTE ]
There's no reason to believe that you're beat yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

?
I think that when people lead bet into preflop 3 & 4 bettors - that's a reason to believe that you're beat.

UTG has to be on a draw or liking his 1 pair
+
UTG+1 has to be betting AJ or QQ or a flush draw
+
Button can't have AA or JJ.

Pretty big parlay.

However, in retrospect you may be right that a 3 bet is +ev on the flop even with the small percentage (in my opinion) of time I'm good-- due to the number of players involved.

As far as calling bets 3&4 on the flop-- a K is a clean out usually and hitting it on the turn has huge implied odds even factoring in the times I get outdrawn on the river.

Regards,
Jamie

[Jamie Collins]

I 3 bet with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the cutoff. Unknown Button 4bets. Straight forward BB calls. The rest call.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] .
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises. Call, call. I call. Button thinks a while and calls. BB calls.
Raise, cap – all call.

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] .
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises. MP1 calls, MP2 drops. I drop.

RESULTS:
Button and BB cold call the first turn raise, UTG+1 3bets, UTG caps and all call.

River: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG+1 checks UTG bets, MP1 folds, Button calls UTG+1 folds.
UTG+1 takes down a 37BB (I think)pot with a set of Jacks. Button flashes AA.

[mikelow]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

[mikelow]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises. Call, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that board and the action so far, I would at least consider a fold. Maybe I won't bring myself to do so, but
you may be in trouble already.