10-20 Bellagio NLHE

[ZeroGee]

10-20 Bellagio NLHE, Main game. Must move game was very juicy -- big bluffs being made, mostly being called. Main game was a lot tighter, and very few pots were being contested. Biggest stack was only about $7k at this time -- after dinner, there were two stacks above $10k, but I didn't see how they got there.

I'm dealt AKo in the BB. 3 limpers to the button, who makes it $200 to go.

Your move.

Note -- usually people were making it 60 to go, or if there were limpers, 100 to go. This was a much bigger raise (even for this guy too, a change in his betting patterns) then what had occurred earlier.

Let's say you chose to call. Flop comes down A 4 2. You check. He bets $200. What do you do?

You have $3500 behind. He has you covered.

[turnipmonster]

so he made a larger than usual raise preflop, and then underbet the pot on the flop. preflop, to me this smells like pocket jacks or queens, something big but if everyone folds he is happy to take it down. on the flop, his bet feels like a "let's see where I'm at" bet. so in your shoes I feel like I'm probably leading, but could be way way behind. I am not ready to back my hand with my whole stack, however, which is not going to be a problem because we're both reasonably deep. I would probably call here, and be prepared to call the turn/river if he continues to underbet. I'd say odds are good he checks the turn and calls a bet on the river.

I don't think there's anything wrong with folding AKo out of position to a big raise, though.

I don't really like raising here because you don't want to play a monster pot unless this guy is a fish.

[Matt Flynn]

First, if you were in the tight main game with a juicy side game and heading to dinner, why not recycle?

With no other information about his betting (e.g., if you thought he'd very likely have AA or KK there), I'd call. If you raise you are likely to get called and then what will you do if you miss? For that matter what if you hit? You don't really want to stack off as the aggressor there. So just call.

You want to get as much information as you can. Watch him watch the flop, and decide whether he likes his hand.

If you hit the flop, I'd check-call and make the call look good. Take a little time to think it over. You're willing to put more chips in as long as he as the aggressor will bet the turn without a huge hand.

If you miss, you have a bankroll issue. You can check-fold and be done with it, preserving your stack. Or, you can play hard core no limit. What I would often do in the absence of a flop tell (and assuming he likes money and doesn't just call down with everything and also that he won't expect the move from me), is check-raise him big on the flop. He bets $400. I raise $1,000. Pucker time. If he calls, hand's usually over for me.

Matt

[limon]

you gotta put this dude on a hand...period. if you cant i say fold, if you're beat fold, if you're winning...RAISE IT UP!

i ask myself questions like this:

What is his usual raise, what did it correlate to.
what is the usual raise at the table
are any of the limpers the "never fold pre-flop type" (if so i give him credit for a big hand)
what is he trying to accomplish, building a pot or winning a pot
can i take this play away from him

I dont like the check call when hitting and ace...heres why (beware of anecdotal evidence)

exact same situation you're in but the raiser is Huck Seed and hes been raising and backing up those raises to the hilt all night. i just call w/ my AK. flop is A T 7 i decide to let huck blow off some dough so i just check and he bets the pot (duh) turn is a Q i check call again river is an A im sure hell hammer again with anything so i check he SMARTLY overbets the pot i call he shows AQ. i should have played my game from the get go and re-raised pre flop or at least blasted him on the flop TPTK is not a hand to slowplay. this was 3 years ago ive never made that move since and have slept much better.

[ZeroGee]

Matt,

I called, for just that reason. As for the recycling, I did get up and leave, and put my name back on the Must-move when I returned, but unfortunately chose to sit 30-60 instead and promptly played like mik ... i mean crap. But that's another story.

You have to ask yourself here, "are you ahead or behind?" With that massive raise preflop, I had to put him on a big pair. But I just didn't see Aces. This guy loved action, and I don't think he'd try to kill it when he's got Aces. So I put him on JJ, QQ, KK.

So why did I call and not raise? Wanted to see what hit (a J, Q, or K), wanted to keep the pot small, and had no reason to risk $1k here... yet.

Turn was a 5. Board was now A 4 2 5. I checked, he bet either $400 or $500 (can't recall), and I thought and called. I still have to be ahead right?

River was a 6. A 4 2 5 6. I check, he checks. I have to win, right?

Nope. He had 4 4 for the flopped set. I have no idea why he checked the river (how could I have a 3?), and I doubt I looked like I had Aces being so weak in this hand... but how can I imagine I'm behind? I've got an ace, there's an ace on the board, and the only conceiveable hand (44 and 22 were NOT conceiveable) were the _only remaining two aces_.

Comments on my thought process?

BTW, that Must-move game that I passed up on later on... I watched a guy call $1300 on the river with A7 off-suit on a board of A J 8 5 2, only to lose to A8 who had flopped two pair. Apparently that guy went through over 10k at the must-move table before leaving. Shoulda taken the damn seat.

[Matt Flynn]

That's why I don't like going nuts with the hand postflop. There you got off cheap where you would've just gotten killed, and often you pick up extra money by checking it.

You can raise preflop, but I _hate_ being out of position with an unmade hand. If he calls what are you going to do when you hit? When you don't? Concede $600-800 if you miss? Bet the hand and pray, having put half your chips in? Sure if you've made the pot $1200-$1600 and you hit you're going all in, but he's not unless he's got you beat. It just blows.

Fundamentally it just sucks to be out of position.

Matt

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I like your response here. I know you have played more of this higher buy-in stuff than me, and your response makes good sense.

My instinct here would be either to bet about the pot, or check-raise the flop to about 6-800 (since he had bet $200 on the flop after your check). You should know if you're beat when he goes all-in over the top and be able to safely release. You should also avoid the AQ scenario you discussed much of the time.

With AK I think you should get in a bet or raise yourself either before the flop or on the flop . Since he raised some limpers BTF, I can live with the call preflop, that's not bad. But not betting/check-raising the flop seems weak to me.

Am I on the right track here?

Also you weren't totally clear, would you typically bet or check-raise the flop? My instinct again is to probably check-raise, but your opinion is sought (and other opinions too).

al

p.s. my pronouns are slightly F-d up here, but it should be clear anyway! :-)

[ML4L]

Hey Max,

I think that you played it well. You're right; preflop, it doesn't seem like aces. Looks more like a poorly played TT-88. I suppose that you could play back at him preflop, but that might even be a better play with rags than a legitimate hand, because a reraise might cost you a chance at outflopping KK/QQ.

On the flop, it's unlikely that free cards are going to hurt you. Despite limon's Huck Seed story, I'm perfectly content to let a guy fire off his stack on the flop and the turn. Out of curiosity, after you called preflop, what hands do you think he would put you on? And, what was your plan if he bet the river?

Like Matt said, you have a lot more options in position...

Mike