A different kind of hand

[Schneids]

Party Poker 10/20 (6 handed)
Hero has 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and is BB

CO(poster) checks, Button limps, SB folds, Hero checks

Flop(3 1/2 SB): Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks

Turn(1 3/4 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls

River(3 3/4 BB): 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero checks, Button checks



Do you make this turn bet? If so, a river check?

[naphand]

I think the Turn bet is fine. They may have nothing, they likely call an A overcard so you get a chance to take the pot there and then or pick up an extra BB from overcards. Low risk, easy escape. River check I am also OK with, the other cards are horribly clustered, increasing the likelihood your opponent has caught something.

Hell - I even make this Turn bet with an A..... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Demian]

I'm inclined to just check this kind of hand through. Would it be wrong then to fold to a river bet? I just hate this kind of hand and feel like i'm unwilling to put any money towards it since very often someone will just be afraid to bet an 8 or T on the flop or a small pocket pair and they'll just call it down. If i was on the button instead, then i would bet it if it was checked to me on the turn with two players in, not more than that though. I'm just as happy to let someone else take it most of the time and get to the next hand, especially since in your position you often will have to bet again on the river or risk somebody trying to steal. I'd hate to have put in a big bet just so someone can take my river check as an opportunity to steal that bet, and i'd hate to have put in 2 big bets with a paired 2.

[King Yao]

I like the Turn bet alot, and if he calls, I intend to check/call if the River is any card other than a 8, 9 or J. If the River is a 8,9 or J, I fold.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
very often someone will just be afraid to bet an 8 or T on the flop or a small pocket pair and they'll just call it down. If i was on the button instead, then i would bet it if it was checked to me on the turn with two players in,

[/ QUOTE ]

A decent SH player will normally not check a pair 3way, no raise preflop, so it depends on how bad your opponents are. And also, very passive players are normally also loose, so yes, they will sometimes check a pair on flop but they will also call with a weak draw on turn when you bet your small pair. And also, you know where you got them, they will not get tricky and turnraise as a bluff, raise means: I slowplayed.

Yes, you can bet on the button if its checked around both flop and turn. But if flop is checked around it normally means: We aint got a hand. And if you catch something little on turn, then you must bet. Weak players got a major leak here, they never get aggressive without a draw or a made hand. Decent players will soon understand that you never bet a weak hand on turn and start to fold when you want them to call.

Statistically you hit a pair about 1/3 flops, the chance of none of the other 2 players being hit by a random flop is 4/9 (2/3*2/3), a little below 50%. So when both check there is a very good chance that they got nothing.

I bet this turn 100%. You are investing 2 to win 5 + you got a decent chance to win even if one of them call. Its not like you have to win with this bet every time. If both fold something like 1/3-1/4 this turnbet is a good investement.

If I bet turn I would fold to a raise and I would checkcall river, hoping he will bluff with his A high. Against a very passive player I would maybe checkfold river but at least where I play, 5/10, people love to bluff on river if you give them a chance.

[BookOfIcculus]

Is a river bet profitable? I may make this bet on the river and fold to a raise. Bottom pair worst kicker, ugly, But you may get an 8 to fold, 33-77. And you may get called down by Ace high.

In a perfect world someone would have raised this up preflop.

[zamora]

i dont think anyone, thinking or non-thinking, would fold a pair on the river once they decided to call the turn bet.

but a river bet might be profitable anyway, especially if your opponenet is the curious type of cheese and/or if you are known to take shots at these kind of boards from ep.

personally, i would have played it exactly like the original poster.

[DonWaade]

I like the bet on the turn. I am not too sure what the villian has. Probably not overcards becuase he would likely have a pair or be on a straight draw. He could have a smaller pair and your bet could induce a fold. He could have been waiting for a diamond to fall but then is uber-passive. I think caling the river down is ok too. I dont think you can "value bet" the river tho. After all you have BPBK (Bottom Pair Bottom Kicker, or course. See Josh W and andyfox for more on BPBK)

[Demian]

Thanks for the reply kiddo. That made me think differently about how i handle these situations. This was a part of my game that i think i started playing weak when it felt like i was losing money to passive players who were more comfortable just checking, or check-calling, with weak hands. But i see your point now, and see that i need to find a better balance playing my weak hands than just giving them up.

[Schneids]

I win. Opponent has K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and my hand is a monster.

I did not expect to see this topic still near the top after returning from my mini-vacation -- however, I think there were a lot of interesting perspectives presented for both check/fold and betting it.

It all just kind of makes me wonder how many hands similar to this type that we encounter over the course of an hour, and what the right combination of play is in them to maximize your EV. Probably not always betting, nor checking and folding... But how far off from the middle?