Good check-raise?

[cold_cash]

Fairly loosey goosey table, not very aggressive at any time, nothing too out of the ordinary. A few seats had emptied so we were down to 5.

I've been trying to checkraise more often because I don't think I do it nearly as often as I should (partly because I'm not entirely sure when I should be doing it, hence this post).


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (6 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets, MP calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 8 BB, between MP and Hero.</font>

Another question: IF the flop check-raise was good, should I have kept betting like I did or start check-calling at some point? There were definetely a few "any Ace" type of players at this table, and I'm not so sure the MP player would have put in a raise with a better Ace, so even though he didn't raise I really never knew if I was ahead, or if I was just betting his hand for him.

What's my play if the BB had bet out on the flop and everyone had called?

Any comments appreciated.

[Brian]

Hi cold_cash,

This isn't the type of hand I'd check-raise. You have top pair, but a weak kicker, so you really don't want to get 3-bet. Also, the pot is fairly small, so you don't really need to knock people out. I'd bet out and let them chase if they want to. The rest is fine. You shouldn't check-call at any point, becauase if you check, a better hand (better Ace, or on the River, any King) will bet, and a worse hand will take a freebie.

If you check the Flop, and the BB bets out, I'd fold. Your hand isn't very strong and the board is relatively drawless. Unless the BB is the type to bet into 2 other players without top pair, he's got you beat. And if 2 other players called, you're almost certainly beat on this board.

-Brian

-Brian

[Emmitt]

I'm not that keen on the check-raise, given how you have described the other players. If you had a reason to feel that they were tight and attentive, then it might function as an effective semi-bluff and knock out some hands that were actually beating you.
Re. check-calling, agree with the previous poster entirely.

[Zetack]

This is a fairly weak hand to check raise with, although playing at a five handed table it at least becomes possible. And the bet did come in the perfect position for you. Mp3 may have an ace, but may also be betting into a PF limping field that checked to him on the flop with just about anything.

I'd would like to know if people are playing this like a short handed table or more standard.

If your intention was to bet out every street if you didn't check raise here, I think spending one small bet to check raise is fine and may save you money if the opponent has a stronger ace.

Even if it didn't work out here, agression gives more dividends than normal in a short handed game.

--Zetack

[cold_cash]

The more I've thought about this hand, the more I agree that the check-raise wasn't so great.

I think I've confused two different situations. A checkraise would be good here if I'd flopped a top pair, other than aces, and had a weak kicker, right? (Let's say I'm holding J8s in the same situation, and I flop a Jack. Then I'm hoping for a bet on my right so I can raise and charge overcards and hopefully make them fold, correct?)

The situation in this hand is a tricky one that I find myself in quite a bit. A lot of times I'm playing at a loose, passive table, so I'm able to limp with a suited Ace from almost anywhere. When I happen to flop a pair instead of a flush draw though, I'm usually not very confident with what to do with it.

[Brian]

Hi cold_cash,

Yes, you have part of the reasoning behind a check-raise down. A check-raise would be much better with a top pair of Jacks than a top pair of Aces. But, at a short-handed table, especially one that isn't very aggressive, you have to balance out the plusses with the minuses, and if everyone checks around, it is a disaster for a hand like a pair of Jacks.

One of the main ways I make money at Limit Hold'em is people incorrectly calling my Flop bets. They seem to want to take 1 off no matter what they hold and what the board is because it's only a small bet. And then they routinely fold on the Turn. So I often just bet the Flop in situations like this.

Here's a time that I frequently, if not always, check-raise. I'm in the BB with a face card and a weak kicker, say K3o. The Flop comes K84, and there are 5 other people in the pot for 1 bet each. I will never, ever bet this Flop for many reasons. I'll almost always check, and then either check-fold or check-raise. If the bet comes from an early position player, I'll fold. If it comes from a late position player, I'll raise and try to thin out the field. But I never bet out. Make the field 3 other players instead of 5, and I'll probably bet out. See HPFAP's section called "Playing Trash from the Blinds" for more discussion on this concept.

As far as Axs is concerned, I pretty much only play that hand from late position. It's definitely profitable there for me, but it is a tricky hand to play if you can easily get trapped when you flop a pair of Aces. Hands like Axs, Kxs, Qxs, etc. aren't profitable on the Button unless you can know when your top pair is good, and when it's not.

-Brian

[el_grande]

I don't think the c/r is all that bad here. I have a very hard time folding top pair to one bet, no matter what my kicker. A bet and a call and I can fold without hesitation in this spot.

I would have bet the turn to give the guy a chance to fold, but I would have check-called or maybe even check-folded the river. Why check-fold the river? Well, you check-raised the flop so he knows you are capable of that. If he has the confidence to bet the river after you bet the turn then he has something better than A5.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a time that I frequently, if not always, check-raise. I'm in the BB with a face card and a weak kicker, say K3o. The Flop comes K84, and there are 5 other people in the pot for 1 bet each. I will never, ever bet this Flop for many reasons. I'll almost always check, and then either check-fold or check-raise. If the bet comes from an early position player, I'll fold. If it comes from a late position player, I'll raise and try to thin out the field. But I never bet out. Make the field 3 other players instead of 5, and I'll probably bet out. See HPFAP's section called "Playing Trash from the Blinds" for more discussion on this concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure this advice is second nature to most posters, but I think reading it the way you explain it will realy help me out. At the very least, it got me to say "Yeah, that makes sense." (And sometimes it takes quite a bit to get me thinking.) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Looks like I need to do some more re-reading.

Thanks Brian. (And everybody else)