Moral question - bots

[WinHoldemSupport]

sunshine,

[ QUOTE ]

If you must start these threads ...


[/ QUOTE ]

we didnt start the thread.

<...snip old school thinking about internet poker>

we won't rest until the average online player would not ever consider playing online without some form of computer assistance. similar to the way microsoft set out to put their os on every pc in the universe, our business goal is to put winholdem on the desktop of every online poker player in the universe.

we are not going away.

there is nothing you can say or do that is just magically going to cause us to close shop and stop selling bots to the general public. how is that in our best business interest.

it is only a matter of time before it finally sinks in, that bots are here to stay, so you better either know how to build one, or know how to program one or know where to acquire one.

wake up and smell the bandwidth.

winholdem support.

[WinHoldemSupport]

blackaces,

<in response to your alzheimers b&m scenario>
i personally could not do anything like what you suggested for one reason. the first is that my conscience would bother me, and i generally decline to engage in activities that bother my conscience because it lowers the quality of my life. this is the way that i am wired. however, when playing online, i experience zero guilt over the use of bots and/or teaming. this is just the way that i am wired.
i have experienced apprehension when engaged in teaming due to the fear of getting caught - this is a different behavior modifier than ones own conscience. i want to continue to play therefore i will try to avoid detection.

ethics are that part of the human psyche that will cause them to make decisions based on whether or not they might be violating their conscience and lower their quality of life.

any social system based purely on ethics is one based on the honor system, you are trusting that others in the system will voluntarily behave in a certain manner.

some things in this life are too important to leave to ethics and the human conscience, especially things that involve money. this is why we have security at banks, to guard against those who would lose zero sleep if they robbed a bank.

i am not against ethics. on the contrary i am all for them. however, when it comes to online poker and real money, it is pure foolishness to let the emperor walk by and act like he is fully dressed. and i simply refuse to do it.

<in response to your scenario #2>
no i could not rob the man because my conscience would hurt and the quality of my life would suffer far greater than a measly $3k reward (even if you could provide me a 100% guarantee that i would not get caught, i could not hurt the man.) this is just the way that i am wired. i suffer if i feel that i have willingly hurt the innocent. i would also suffer if i accidentally hurt the innocent (e.g. hit a child with my car).

<in response to your #3 golf moral scenario>
before i respond directly, i want to say that each of your 3 scenarios are missing one essential ingredient which is - probable liklihood - you are offering dilema scenarios that have almost zero chance of occuring. please keep this in mind when we discuss the probability of bots and collusion on the internet (assuming you want to treat me as fair and balanced as i am treating you).

to answer your #3 scenario - no, i could do no such thing. my conscience would bother me. i prefer the guaranteed safety of the $500k and the clean conscience.

for me personally there is a second feature that each of your moral scenarios lacks - all 3 of your would be victims are 'innocent' people.

and finally there is a third feature that your scenarios lack and that is - 'reduced intimacy', in each of these scenarios i have probably engaged the person in conversation in a sociable way and therefore i have a non-zero emotional involvement with them.

now i would like to contrast this with internet poker (from my psychological disposition)

1) the opportunity probability for online pokerbots and online collusion is much much much higher than the opportunity probability in each of your scenarios.

2) for me personally, the level of innocence of online players is very near to zero. (whereas in your scenarios i view the people as very innocent).

3) and lastly, i dont chat when i play poker online, i want to keep the level of intimacy at near zero. contrast this with your 3 scenarios where the level of intimacy is most certainly non-zero.

[ QUOTE ]

There's something called honor and trust that human society needs to exist. Being completely void of both makes life meaningless.


[/ QUOTE ]

i totally agree with this. but i still want physical security at my bank. i want locks on my doors. i want encryption for my online credit card transactions. and i want to play poker in an online environment that is 100% guaranteed to be bot free and collusion free.

i don't trust online poker players to obey the honor system and provide such a guarantee. i want any such system to not be dependent on the honor of poker players if my money is involved.

the disconnect between us is quite simple:
you have a lot more faith and trust in the honor of poker players than i do. your choice. don't expect me to follow you.

winholdem support.

[Twisty]

How good are these bots?
Maybe we should set up a little match!
Im curious to see how good(or bad) they are.

Twisty

[WinHoldemSupport]

twisty,

we've made open offers several times, but so far nobody wants to accept.

what are you proposing?

winholdem support.

[Twisty]

Lets set up a private table at one of the reputable sites.
6 handed preferably and ill play them.10-20 would be a good limit.
Im intersted in seeing how i do against bots and how i do against colluding players.(hopefully i can adjust properly)

P.s. Im assuming the collusion isnt so obvious that they get banned or am i wrong on this issue?

[WinHoldemSupport]

twisty,

first off we would never publically announce that we were going to play a bunch of bots at an open table on a site that was bias against bots ... we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.

we would accept that offer if you are willing to play at poker professional - where bots are allowed and collusion is allowed.

you can find the poker professional download link at pokerbot.com at the bottom of the home page

just say when and let us know how many bots you'd like to play against ... also give us an idea of how weak/strong you want the bots to play ...

winholdem support.

[Twisty]

Im not playing at a site that i cant be assured the shuffle is random.
To be quite honest im afraid to even download it!I dont want you guys picking away at my computer.Who knows what your capable of doing with it.
Also i dont want to play for play money.
If you can think of an acceptable arrangment for both of us let me know.
Twisty

[WinHoldemSupport]

twisty,

changing the distribution of the deal has zero value to us.
we are interested in the truth.

we are not interested in playing for real money.
poker proffessional has been downloaded by many many people.
so your fears are unfounded.

right now you can see several test sessions taking place.
the AZ table is testing two heads up bot formula sets against each other.

the site if very legit.
it is used by winholdem customers to test bot AI so altering the poker mechanics in anyway has zero value to us or our customers.

we are in the business of selling pokerbots.
it is in our best interest to be as truthful about it as possible.

if you doubt this then read our license agreement
http://www.winholdem.net/license_agreement.html

anybody wanting to fleece customers would not publish even half of what is in that agreement.

there is much more value in offering you a high quality game at poker professional than there is trying to rig a game. also poker professional is only for play money at this time. it is not for real money; not yet anyway. the site is still underdevelopment.

winholdem support.

[kdog]

I still don't see any answer to Grannie's questions. Why the selective responses?

[WinHoldemSupport]

granny,

1. <snip very bad infomercial scenario>
for $100 you get a professional winholdem license and a programmable pokerbot. you get a basic formula set that plays very defensive poker and is easily modifiable to your liking.

2. <clip improbable end-of-poker scenario>
this is very unlikely. you can't rightfully refer to users of bots as 'evil'. you can use a bot too if you want - entirely your choice. some people feel that using a bot helps them play better and/or win more. we do not feel sorry for you if you choose not to use a bot. we do not think less of you either. we believe nothing can kill online poker; the human love of the game is too great. however, if that occurred, we would be out of business in that winholdem would have less value in an online context, it would still have value as a holdem calculator. also, if winholdem brought about the end of online poker as we know it, then it would probably be remembered in the history internet history books. what is more likely is that the community of online players world wide will finally grow up, get wise and come to finally understand that they cannot reasonably expect bot free holdem and collusion free holdem - that it is impossible for an opc to guarantee this and that this is nobody's fault except the internets. at that point online holdem as we know it will die; and it will change to a form that makes bots and collusion a non-issue. it will be every man for himself and it will be perfectly fine to use a bot and/or collude at the table. the opcs will maintain their raked game but decline to use bots themselves and or shills (as there is no need for them to do so). mucking will no longer be an option and all dealt hands will get revealed at the end of the showdown. forced antes would probably get instituted as well (the antes are debatable, some feel this helps teams; we feel that it hurts them), you will see books on the shelves that now include chapters on how to player against differing team types and personalities and not just individual player personalities. the game will become more complex; harder to predict and very interesting. you will have 10-chair games where there are 4 players teamed against 3 players against 2 players against 1 (very brave) solo player. casino software will be modified to allow up to 23 players at a single table. these are just a few of our projections for the future of internet poker.

3. <clip MSNBC new story scenario>
see response to number 2 above.

4. i fail to understand exactly how we are obligated to provide an income for you. we want to sell programmable pokerbots; we want winholdem running on every poker playing desktop in the world. just view us as an equipment provider to online poker competitors.