Bots won't destroy online poker

[stupidsucker]

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we did the business analysis both ways.
the public model is at least twice as good.


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This makes me laugh a hearty Guffaw!

Simply put.. IF your bot worked as good as you say it did,.. lets say it can make 2 BB/hour

Run it on 3 5-10 tables and you are now making 60 bucks an hour. If that works why not make 200 bucks an hour running it 24/7 using several different accounts(alternating them)

Ok 20 hours a day * 200/hour = 4k a day just playing 5-10
Thats 1.5million a year
You could do this with NO overhead
No updates to software due to pokerrooms fixing you
No customer complaints
No employees

We are talking about millions of dollars over the next few years(playing 5-10)

You are full of [censored] if you think you could possibly sell enough bots and cover expenses.

Lets say 100,000 people buy your bot (party only has 45k people online at most given peak moments)
Lets say you up the price to 1000 whopping dollars for the program.. These numbers are absurd in your favor.. How much does it cost again?

Ok now you have brought in10million dollars. Yes 10million. You WILL have a multimilliondollar lawsuit on your hands from customers and giants such as party poker itself. (And you would lose)
You have 100k whiny customers to deal with , and they are all playing against each others bots.(if all players are the same skill level they CANT beat the rake no matter how perfect they play)

Bottom line is .. Your bot doesnt work properly, or I think even YOU would be smart enough to keep it under your hat. THAT is saying a lot..

I enjoy your posts, and I want to be here when we all say I told you so.

I understand your customers want of your product 100%, I still think its wrong of them, but greed is powerful. I also can see each of them getting burned by something that just cant preform.

I urge each of you to buy winholdem as well. I support it ! I need something to make me laugh. I have my Guffaw waiting in a big corked bottle, for you and every one of your customers.

Please prove me wrong... Show me that business model I need a good laugh. If I cant prove its a failure , Ill buy a bot myself.

[WinHoldemSupport]

sirraleigh,

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(i.e. when players stop playing online poker because they know bots are out there)


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we are betting that this is not as big a problem as many are saying. the advent of chess software did not destroy the human love of chess and the continued desire to play. bots will not kill the human desire to play poker; bots will help everyone play better.

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so no computer program could reliable detect game events


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we are betting that we will be able to get winholdem to recognize anything a human can. our business depends on it. we are very comitted in this regard.

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Summerizing, I beleive bots only exist because online casinos let them exist because it is better for their bottom line.


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i think you attribute way more power and omniscience to the opc's than what is realistic.

winholdem support.

[WinHoldemSupport]

ss,

first off we disagree with your estimate ... not because you did the math wrong but because we dont think a raked hi limit game has an ev of 2bb/hr (certainly not for an entire year 24/7) ... maybe on a given night when and if you happen upon a table where a some wealthy rich newbs decide to have a pissing contest, but certainly not on regular basis. the more realistic value is probably one small blind per hour. you would also have a difficult time playing for extremely long sessions without being detected. the typical auto-bot player will run one daily session and expect to get x / hour on average where x is probably 1 small blind. we say typical because it depends entirely on the conditions at the table and the quality of the formula set they are using.

we are in the business of selling programmable pokerbots. selling formulas for such a pokerbot is an entirely different business - one in which many of our end-users intend to engage in ... they are working like busy little beavers at the moment on their latest and greatest formula sets.

lastly, we do not believe that the world champion winholdem formula AI will be developed by a single person, rather it is more likely to as the result of a large brain meld of programmers and pokerplayers worldwide in an open source way.

in the near future you will see websites devoted to open source winholdem formula AI. so the business model for the AI is similar to linux. get a bunch of people fine tuning a publically available formula set; such a formua set will be vastly superior to anything a single individual can do regardless of how good they.

our first business goal was simply to deliver a programmable pokerbot to the general public. we have achieved that goal (and we constantly add new AI symbols as needed by the formula developers).

the business second goal is to release a publically available open source formula set that anybody can use. the power of this goal is that it taps the mind power of every willing formula developer and not just a single person.

it will take more than a room of programmers to write a world champion poker AI.

winholdem support.

[pudley4]

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not because you did the math wrong but because we dont think a raked hi limit game has an ev of 2bb/hr (certainly not for an entire year 24/7)

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Not for your bot it doesn't.

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the more realistic value is probably one small blind per hour.

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You can only make $.50/hr at a 1-2 table??? My son could make that, and he's only 4.

Oh, wait, you were talking about the "hi limits", like 5-10 [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[SirRaleigh]

All I am saying is online casinos aren't doing much in preventing bots from detecting game events or changing them often because to do so would lower the end users experience and at the same time make users aware that the reason they do bizarre things with the flop cards is to avoid bot detecting game events.

One of thousands of ways one could distorte the flop cards, for example, apply some moving algorthim to make the surfaces ripple, like they are on top of water, and changing these methods and algorithms daily would make it near impossible for a bot writter to keep writting programs fast enough to detect the manipulations.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure you are good at what you do. But bits are bits, bot writters need some prediciable way to detect game events to operate alone. Plus, the online casinos would have your software and its updates, so they could easily tell what breaks and what doesn't break your detecting algorithms.

If bots become a big problem, the person with the money, i.e. PartyPoker, will have 20 programmers to your 1 programmer to consistently outsmart and avoid your detecting algoritms, whatever they may be, screen scrapping, sounds, etc.

Do you not agree with my last statement?

SirRaleigh

[WinHoldemSupport]

thief,

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but put "(bot)" under a player's name at a table, I'd have no problem with it


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we have zero problem with that. our management sent a letter to the opc's offering to signal their software if and when winholdem was used by a player ... then the opc's would have some kind of 'bot' icon ... they all refused.

the only reason we offered to do that is because we are in the business of selling programmable pokerbots. getting the opc's to embrace bots would be great for business. but they started the cold war not us.

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As far as the war going on, I think the whole poker fad will die down once people start losing their money and realize that they suck at the game.


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we are betting that they will not lose their love of the game and will wake up and smell the bandwidth and suddenly become in the market for a pokerbot. and pokerbot.com is in the business of selling programmable pokerbots so that's good for business.

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I highly doubt any measures the companies take will be able to keep the bots out.


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we completely agree with this statement, which is why we offered to play nice with them by making it very very easy for them to detect winholdem. they refused; and so we have a cold war and we are implementing anti-detection measures in order to protect our business.

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there are many different kinds of wrong


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the better statement is "there are many different kinds of risks" ...

compare
1) standing up in church and farting loudly and announcing that you love porn.
versus
2) turning in a term paper in all caps, no punctuation, no spacing.

neither act is 'wrong' it's just a case of more risk than reward.

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If you go out and buy a bot, and play online, you've outsmarted the online casino, but whose money are you getting? You aren't getting the poker room's money, you are getting other peoples' money


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on the contrary. the money in the pot belongs to nobody until the showdown has been resolved. when you play online poker ... you wear two hats at the same time - a casino hat and a player hat. if you are my opponent at a table i see only your casino hat ... i view it as no different than a complicated game of blackjack ... you are there at that table to provide action on the part of the casino so that 'i' the player will offer a continuous supply of rakable wagers. from my point of view, winning the pot is absolutely identical to winning a blackjack hand from the when counting cards. you willingly provided game action, nobody took your money from you; they simply won the casino pot and not you. when you play poker in a casino you become part of the game mechanism itself like it or not and you accept the risk involved. if you disagree with this then why can't i just show up a table sit down and start playing poker even if there are zero others there; because there is no casino game until others show up to act on behalf of that casino in order to provide action.

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Are your card-sharing capabilities really worth some people being turned off by the fact that most people considering this a cheating aid? I understand that this is a great feature for your product, but I think you lose a lot of potential buyers, because it's tough to trust a company with $200 if I feel that you endorse cheating, and denying that it's actually cheating


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the large majority of customers license the professional edition and not the team edition. we have made no secret about this. you can read the differences here:
http:/www.winholdem.net/wh_pricing.php

we get many emails asking us which wiholdem editions can be safely purchased without the end user suffering the risk of being accused of colluding - and the answer is and always has been any edition except the team edition. only the team edition has the ability to auto-share. the basic, speed and pro editions do not have this ability. most users just want a programmable poker bot and do not want to auto-team and they are very happy with the pro edition.

and so no it's not bad business at all. the market always decides what is valuable and what is not. the winholdem pro edition is the very clear market choice based on actual sales.

we are considering scraping TTH but that is not decided yet.

for those that currently want to play against winholdem in a safe hassle free environment, you can play at poker professional. you can find the download linnk at pokerbot.com ... the poker professional site is used by winholdem formula developers to test their bots.

winholdem support.