Bots won't destroy online poker

[Sloats]

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A casual player who does not know how to play poker is not going to invest in a program to play poker for them.


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then why are these people licensing winholdem on a daily basis? the response we are seeing does not agree with your statement. poker players want one thing - to win. and they would like to defend themselves in that process.

winholdem support.


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That would not be a casual player, now would it?

[WinHoldemSupport]

mostro,

you seem to assume that winholdem has no value without card sharing.

this is completely false.
more than 90% of all real money testing was done solo.

whatever perception you have of winholdem is obviously wrong.

winholdem support.

[WinHoldemSupport]

thief,

great,

now that at least one other person admits that a team of humans will have a difficult time against an opposing team of bots ... we can leave that point alone.

we are not trying to push this in anybody's face. none of us here can meet the challenge either. but we didn't consider the issue settled merely because we can't beat a team of bots; we were willing to admit that there may be a group of players that could. the offer still stands.

so, lets just talk about heads up poker. this eliminates the possibility of collusion but not necessarily bots.

anybody on this forum that would like to go heads up against winholdem ... we will be glad to arrange a match.

basically, anybody that continues to say that winholdem plays poorly can expect us to challenge that statement any way we see fit.

you say that for some poker is an enjoyable experience ... we agree ... but only if you win regularly ... if you already win regularly then good for you man ... if you do not win regularly then nothing you say can convince me that you enjoy that experience.

most of our customers are people who were losing regularly and now they are not. some are players who were already winning and are genuinely intriqued with the idea of having a bot play real money for them while they sleep.

if you are reading this and you do not yet know the experience of getting up in the morning to see that your bot has doubled it's table stake during the night ... you have not yet lived.

winholdem support

[WinHoldemSupport]

thief,

holding up the spelling/grammar measuring stick is so old school ... and it demonstrates that you dont understand the what is truly valuable on the internet ...

forming an opinion about someone because they chose not to spend the extra time needed to spell/grammar check each of several hundred daily posts/emails is understandable ...

we are as interested in challenging and repelling the type of customers we do not want as we are in attracting the ones we do.

we intentionally do not use captilization and extraneous punctuation in order to provoke an emotional response in readers like yourself. it is an excellent psychological filter in that if you are prone to complain about a relaxed attitude toward typing\grammar and punctuation then there is a very high probability that you would make a poor customer.

but dont blame me for this man. im just a forum jock doing what im told. this is the first job ive ever had where my job description includes the intentional ommission of capitalization and extraneous punctuation as well as the requirement of having a takenoshitfromanyone attitude.

the point im am trying to make is that the style and tone of each our the posts from winholdem support is not an accident or mistake ... it is completely intentional.

each of the support people here at pokerbot.com were psychologically screened for a specific personality feature ... that being what they referred to as the "bill murray" mindset ... which was described to us as the trait of feeling fulfilled by controversy and/or pissing people off. several very nice people were turned down for this job.

so if you are putoff by the way i am posting then i have done my job according to my job description.

finally, if you have issues with simple social rules like spelling/punctuation then you certainly will have issues with the classic poker rules:

1) thou shalt not use bots.
2) thou shalt not share.

hope this helps explain things a bit,

winholdem support

[Henke]

this is completely false.
more than 90% of all real money testing was done solo.

So basically, about 10% of the time you where cardsharing/cheating/colluding at a real money table during the testing phase?

Ok, Ray, what sites did you use? They might be interested...

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Checking server [whois.crsnic.net]
Checking server [whois.opensrs.net]
Results:
Registrant:
HixoxiH Software
4143 Red Laurel Way
Snellville, GA 30039
US

Domain name: WINHOLDEM.NET

Administrative Contact:
Bornert II, Ray E. ray.bornert@hixoxih.com
4143 Red Laurel Way
Snellville, GA 30039
US
+1 770 736 7870 Fax: +1 770 736 8790

Technical Contact:
Hostmaster, Dragon Networks hostmaster@dragon.com
3168 Mercer University Drive
Suite 102
Atlanta, GA 30341
US
770-458-1350 Fax: 770-458-1340


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[sthief09]

Do you think a person has the right to know which of his opponents are bots?

[OldLearner]

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we are as interested in challenging and repelling the type of customers we do not want

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How do we repel you and your product?

[WinHoldemSupport]

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Do you think a person has the right to know which of his opponents are bots?


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thief,

the answer to this questions depends on how the guarantee is enforced. if said guarantee requires that the government install a camera on my system or surgically implant an anal probe ... then my answer is no ... you cannot secure your right to know if you are playing against a bot if the act of doing so violates a deeper more fundamental right of the individuals at that table.

the internet changes things man. you simply cannot expect things to operate the same way online as they do in face to face.

if you can find a way for me to play poker online such that it is a certainty that you are not using a bot then i would view that as valuable.

until then, you do not have the right to know because there is no way to guarantee that right. any current guarantee is based on the honor system which is a relatively poor guarantee when humans are involved.

the future holds one of two basic scenarios

1) computer assistance kills online poker.
(in which case we have nothing to discuss and we will all return to the b&m's)
2) an online poker cold war happens:
opcs constantly attempt detection measures,
bot makers/users constantly attempt counter measures

such a cold war either continues indefinitely until we get blade-runner like conditions on the earth (human litmus tests) or ....

internet holdem changes and adapts and evolves into a slightly different form than classic holdem ... similar to the way blackjack had to evolve after edward o. thorp taught everyone to card count.

let me ask you this, is card counting in a b&m blackjack game wrong? ... it's against casino policy? it can get you banned from the game?

winholdem support.

[sthief09]

All I asked was a simple question. I didn't say people have the right to know who they are playing against. I just wanted to know if you felt that way. I was going to say that if I was playing online site that allowed bots to play, but put "(bot)" under a player's name at a table, I'd have no problem with it.

This is not to say that I or anyone has the right to know who I'm playing against. Being that you're trying to fight a crusade here, you clearly aren't willing to make such concessions. You have your beliefs, and I respect that.

As far as the war going on, I think the whole poker fad will die down once people start losing their money and realize that they suck at the game. Around that time, the bots will likely be much better, able to show an automatic profit in the longrun. Once that comes, I highly doubt any measures the companies take will be able to keep the bots out.

Few other random comments that I'd be interested in hearing your feelings about:
- Card counting in blackjack is "wrong" in that you are cheating the game. But there are many different kinds of wrong. Casinos have one purpose. That is to get their customers' money by making them feel comfortable and welcome. I don't really consider this a "moral" business, but add in the fact that casinos themselves cheat, and you have a sketchy business. Cheating a sketchy business is still cheating, but I condone these types of wrongdoigns. The reason I don't see bots and card counting on the same level is because of who loses the money. In a casino, if you count cards, you've outsmarted the casino, and you get their dirty money. If you go out and buy a bot, and play online, you've outsmarted the online casino, but whose money are you getting? You aren't getting the poker room's money, you are getting other peoples' money. I'm not making judgments about right or wrong here, I'm just telling you why I think they are different.
- Wouldn't you make more money selling these to the poker rooms? If a new poker site had 3 bots working for theme at every table, they would make an enormous amount of money, and at the same time they'd do a good job of getting new customers because they'd always have players on their tables. They'd probably be willing to pay you very well for your services. Plus you'd be avoiding the cold war you predict. Obviously I don't want this to happen, but I'm curious why you've decided to market to the players and not the companies.
- Are your card-sharing capabilities really worth some people being turned off by the fact that most people considering this a cheating aid? I understand that this is a great feature for your product, but I think you lose a lot of potential buyers, because it's tough to trust a company with $200 if I feel that you endorse cheating, and denying that it's actually cheating.
- Are you ever going to put out a product to compete with Turbo Texas Hold 'em? While that is a great program, it has some flaws, and if your product is as good as you think, you'd be able to sell this to the players such as myself that aren't interested in your services unless they can make these people better players.

[SirRaleigh]

winholdemsupport,

Your winholdem product is definitially interesting to me only because I am a computer programmer and was wondering if bots existed. I play online and always wondered if someone was cheating using a bot, which appears people are. Techically I understand the basic concepts involved, Infact for fun I wrote a program that can detect the flop cards, took about a week say 2 hours a night.

My point here is I do not think WinHoldem or any other bots are a major problem from the viewpoint of the online casino because a majority of the people online do not understand they exist and it is in the interest of the online casino to keep it that way.

Whenever these bots hurt of the bottom line of a casino (i.e. when players stop playing online poker because they know bots are out there) the online casino will take the necessary steps with their client software so no computer program could reliable detect game events.

The only reason the online casino does not take these steps is because it would make it transparent to the end user which would only hurt their business more.

hotmail had problems of bots signing up for free email accounts, they solved this problem by making the user detect a string of text from a picture which made it very hard for a computer program to detect. Such real contermeasures that changed frequently would be the only way I could see to stop bots from detecting game events, which I beleive is at the heart of stopping widespread use of bots.

Summerizing, I beleive bots only exist because online casinos let them exist because it is better for their bottom line.

SirRaleigh