is there any way to avoid busting out here?

[ninja please]

very early in a paradise multi (2nd level). starting stack is 1500, i'm at 1700 after AKo and KK get either no or one caller and then a folded flop.

blinds are 15/30.

i am dealt QQ UTG, and i raise to 160. 3 (!) callers (should i raise to more?).

flop comes QJ3, 2 diamonds.

i check, first caller (short stack, started hand with 700) bets 170, folded to me, and i raise him all in. he flips up KTo, and turns a 9 for the win.

next hand, i am in the BB with about 1000. 5 limpers to me, i check my QJo.

flop is J53, rainbow. i bet 200, KT player from last hand raises to 400, and i re-raise all-in. he flips 32s for bottom pair. river is a 2 and i'm out in my worst finish ever.

my question is, was i too aggressive on the second hand? how does anyone else play it? i was kind of hoping to get calls on my flop bet from people thinking i was tilting from the last hand, and apparently it worked all too well. was this a bad idea with a decent but vulnerable hand?

bad play, or just unlucky to run into a CS who had apparently made the right sacrifices to the poker gods tonight.......

[DeathDonkey]

Sure you can avoid busting out...just fold the best hand that you know is the best hand at the time. He had 8 and 5 outs respectively and hit both times...tough luck to be sure, but these are exactly the situations you want to be in. You had all your chips in as a pretty good favorite (there is absolutely no way you are getting out of the first hand) and you made the correct read and followed through with the correct bet on the second hand.

Bad beat stories are boring...

-DeathDonkey

[ninja please]

[ QUOTE ]
you made the correct read and followed through with the correct bet on the second hand.

Bad beat stories are boring...


[/ QUOTE ]

to be sure, these back to back hands made for somewhat of a bad beat, but in my defense i was posting because i am new to NL tournies and wondering if it was a bad beat or an over aggressive play that got me busted out in the second hand.

obviously, on this hand i got all my chips in with by far the best of it, but without seeing the results of hand two, does the play seem reasonable?

maybe this is an obvious question to most, but since i have only been playing NL for a week or two, i am constantly second guessing myself on hands like these. i apologize if i bored you with my question.

[DeathDonkey]

Hi ninja,

Sorry for including that last line in my first response, I should not have said that. If you browse to a couple other hands on this forum, however, you will see that yours was a much more clear play than some others. I stick by the heart of my original response, you made the right read and got your money in as a pretty big favorite. Without seeing the results I trust you to make the proper play until you prove you can't, and you made the right one here. I think you are second guessing your play from the results in this case...if you would have doubled up you would have thought "thanks maniac for giving me all those chips when I was way ahead."

Sorry again for attacking your post.

-DeathDonkey

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

i'm out in my worst finish ever.

This would only be true if *all* your other finishes were in the money.

Personally, if I'm in a 500 person tourney that pays 45 places, I consider finishing 46th to be worse than finishing 500th, even though I know they're equal.

[ohkanada]

To me 46th is the most disappointing finish.

The worst for me is one where I played poorly and got the money in the pot when I was a big underdog or drawing dead. That may even include making the money!

Ken Poklitar

[MVicuna]

[ QUOTE ]
i am dealt QQ UTG, and i raise to 160. 3 (!) callers (should i raise to more?).

[/ QUOTE ]

At levels 1-3 the same players that fold for T160 fold for T90 and the same hands that call for T160 will call for T300. So raising more or less is more important on pot size vs stack size. People who have commited 1/4 of their stack to see the flop have really good hands and should be watched closely or are going to be commited to the pot post flop if they put any money into it on the flop. Also your raises should be the exact same size every time to avoid leaking hand strength. If that means your AA takes down the blinds so be it.

[ QUOTE ]
flop comes QJ3, 2 diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This looks like a great flop, but its not, especially with T650 pot. You should not have checked this flop and risked giving free cards to the 3 people in the hand or even worse allowing one of the 2 draws to semi bluff at this pot and ending up being pot commited! Also, notice the size of his bet, around 1/4 the pot, he's putting enough out there to make a decent bluff at this pot but not denying himself the right odds, but he has now put around half his chips into the pot. If you raise there is a good chance he'll call with any of the 2 draws that are out there and there is now nothing you can do other then hope his draw doesnt hit or your redraw to the full house hits.

A different way or two to play the hand... Raise to T90 with the same 3 callers, lets assume the SB/BB dont call with their improved odds. We now have T405 in the pot and the villian has T600.

You bet out T100 to the pot, probably a bad idea with so many draws out. If they call you have 3 options.
1.A. If a blank falls on the turn you can go all in here and give them 1:3 odds on 1:4 draws they may be more likely to lay down their draws here if not your even farther ahead on the turn when they go all in then you were on the flop.

1.B. One of the draws hit and you bet out T100 anyways, a call means they hit or are drawing to the other one. A raise means you have to think. How likely are they to buff, how likely are they to have played the 2 cards that make the turn card the hand that beats you. You have to decide that yourself.

1.C. You can also check call if the turn makes the draw and you planned on calling, as a check on the turn/river will induce bluffs so calling after you checked will make you the winner more then calling a raise.

2. You go all in first, he might still call, but I believe the likely hood of his call might be lower, even if its only 1% lower its better then letting him see the turn for free.

3. Bet the pot first, I also believe this may lower his likelyhood of his call, but its all dependent on players.

The 2nd hand you were on tilt and should have thrown away TPWK into a field of 5 limpers for a reraise regardless of the fact it was from the villian of the last hand. Without a raise you have no idea on the hand strength of of the other 5 players. Many players will limp with AA/KK in early position, as will AJ/KJ in late position into a field of limpers. Most of the time you are way behind to a raise in this position.

The first hand you were very unlucky in that the draw got there on your trips, but a lot of people will risk all their chips on what appears to be 1:3 odds for a 1:3 draw.

The 2nd hand you were to aggressive. You may have been right this time and got sucked out on, but normally you're going home anyways.

MarkV.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
At levels 1-3 the same players that fold for T160 fold for T90 and the same hands that call for T160 will call for T300.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree vehmently. Maybe this is true at the $5 and $10 tables, but once you get to the $30, and especially the $50 and $100 tables, the players understand pot odds well enough to know that while calling $90 with something speculative to double up/bust someone may be worth it, calling $160+ is almost certainly not. That said, I don't think you should be raising more with high pairs (unless you are willing to put in the same raise with many other hands) since it gives away too much information. Maybe this is less true against players who will call nearly any raise with two cards that they like.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

I had assumed he was talking about the big 1000+ multis on paradise that are no more then $30 since he said he was just started playing them. I hope he's not learning to play in the $50+ ones and the play he talked about sounds about right for those buy ins.

Yes, If the stacks are deep enough someone will call a 3xBB raise that might fold to a 5XBB raise, but only a certain type of player with a certain type of hand in a certain position is that important. I also think those same players would call a 5XBB bet if 4 people ahead of them called it and they had a big enough stack to not miss the 5XBB.

Your avg hand will get folded for a 3xBB or a 5XBB opening raise is a good rule of thumb. Loose/speculative calls from the larger stacks really has no bearing on how much you open raise for if the situation is right the 1 or 2 BB difference will not matter to them.