A10 s..... I had a terrible time here... thoughts???

[Gomez22]

Empire .50/1.00 (9 handed) - First orbit, seems very loose

I'm MP2 with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP1 limps, I limp, MP3 folds, CO(poster) raises, button cold-calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, I call.

FLOP(14 SB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, CO raises, button cold-calls, folded to MP1, who cold-calls, I call.

TURN(11 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

MP1 checks, I bet, CO calls, button calls, MP1 folds.

RIVER(14 BB): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, both call.... MHIG

My questions are these.....

1. Against a PF raiser the raises your flop bet with TPTK, does anyone ever 3-bet the flop??? I thought about it, but decided against it due to the fact that I had no reads on this guy.

2. Would a turn check-raise be in order here? Or is a bet the way to go with the flop flush-draw, and PF raiser to my left? I wnated to check-raise the turn, but was afraid of it getting checked around.

I know some will say this is standard play, but would a flop check-raise have been in order here, all things considered?

[thirddan]

i don't like a flop c/r, i would bet out and see if CO raises, this might get rid of overcards, but probably not a flush draw...i would 3bet this flop if there hadnt be a preflop raise, but when CO raises my flop bet i would usually give him credit for an overpair...Turn i think betting out is ok, with more players in the pot i might go for a c/r to trap players for more bets, but you wouldn't be making it difficult for draws...Also betting out allows you to 3bet if CO raises again (only hands he has that beat you are TT/AA)...

[Trix]

I would have to be much in doubt that he would bet the turn in order to not go for the checkraise.

[Brian]

Hi Gomez,

Raise pre-Flop. The rest is exactly how I would have played it.

-Brian

[spamuell]

The rest is exactly how I would have played it.

You wouldn't have 3-bet the flop? You wouldn't have attempted a turn check-raise after just calling the flop?

Why not?

[Brian]

Hi spamuell,

I am not 3-betting the Flop because even if I do have the pre-Flop raiser beat (and I would generally assume I am behind here since he raised the Flop), there are 2 other cold-callers in the hand drawing to beat me. I have a measly top pair and there are 3 overcards that could fall, plus there are many draws on the board. I prefer to just call the raise and see what the Turn brings, and if I like the Turn card, bet into the pre-Flop raiser again and hope he makes the rest of the field call 2 double-sized bets cold.

On the Turn, I have improved but still have a vulnerable holding. The Ace could easily scare away the pre-Flop raiser, and it would be a disaster if the Turn got checked through. On the other hand, the Ace could give the pre-Flop raiser a top pair of Aces to go with his AK or AQ, in which case he would probably raise and make the rest of the field call 2 bets cold, which is better than check-raising IMO. The pot is large and I want to do everything in my power to win it, not get extra bets.

Let me know if you still disagree.

-Brian

[spamuell]

Hi Brian, thanks for your response. I'm afraid I do still disagree with you here.

I would generally assume I am behind here since he raised the Flop

I wouldn't usually assume I am behind because I was raised on the flop by the pre-flop raiser. I usually find that if someone raises PF with an AK/AQ type hand, they will often raise the flop with just overcards or something like 99. If it gets capped, I'll worry.

I have a measly top pair and there are 3 overcards that could fall

I wouldn't describe top pair, top kicker as a "measly" hand, I'm inclined to feel it's quite strong, especially as 2-pair on this board is unlikely (65s is not impossible, but it isn’t likely, and if it was out there it probably wouldn’t try to slowplay, and you have outs to beat it anyway, even if it is there).

As for the overcards possibly falling, this is exactly why you should raise! I like to get my money in when I think I have the best of it, and if other players are calling with overcards, although it might be more +EV for me if they were to fold, it is more +EV for me to let them call than it is to let them see the next card for no more bets.

I feel quite strongly about this – your hand is good but also susceptible to being beaten. I would 3-bet here almost 100% of the time – as well as there being value to it because you’re probably ahead, it can also cause overcards to lay down on the turn, figuring that even if they hit they might not be ahead, where otherwise they would have called.

On the Turn, I have improved but still have a vulnerable holding. The Ace could easily scare away the pre-Flop raiser, and it would be a disaster if the Turn got checked through. On the other hand, the Ace could give the pre-Flop raiser a top pair of Aces to go with his AK or AQ, in which case he would probably raise and make the rest of the field call 2 bets cold, which is better than check-raising IMO.

On the turn, you've got top 2 pair, it's really not such a vulnerable hand! I don’t think betting out is wrong here, but I think check-raising is probably better. Even if the flop raiser whiffs out, there’s still a player behind him who probably has something, or maybe just thinks “hmm, everyone’s checked to me, perhaps I can pick up the pot”.

The reason for my preference of a check-raise as opposed to your choice of a bet and hope for a raise is because we’re trying to achieve different things. I’d prefer to trap callers and have them call 2 bets, whereas you are saying “the pot is large, I want to win it”. The pot is 11BB when the action gets to you – if you are ahead, which is probably the case, the hands that might call one bet but not 2 are exactly the hands that you want to call you – a flush draw or open-ender are going to call anyway, the hands that might call for one bet but not 2 are going to be drawing to literally 2 outs each – you want them to call you.
Anyway, I don’t think betting out is horrible, you don’t want the turn checked through, but I do feel that you want people to call here rather than fold, as with top 2 pair, if they don’t have a strong draw that they’re calling with anyway, then you have them drawing very slim.

Let me know if/why you still think I’m wrong.

Thanks

[Gomez22]

Spamuell... Even though you make some points I agree with, we're basically talking about micro-limit players here. I agree with much of what you said, and also some of what Brian said, but most of these players don't put the type of thought into their play than most of us here do. In this situation, this table was very passive, which gives more credit to the PF raiser having a big PP in this certain case. Betting or checking the turn, now that I think about it, I'm probably ahead here most of the time betting the turn..... I can either get 0 or 2 bets by checking, but am guaranteed 1 or 3 by betting out. I'll take a sure 1 over a possible 2 any day.....

You make some very good points here, but I think they pertain more to the type of player(s) that are more likely to pay attention a little more than our friendly micro-player...

Nice post, BTW

[PokerNoob]

You make your money at microlimits by calling stations calling. Bet.

[CMangano]

I think I would raise pf after 3 limpers, especially if the table had a habit of calling 2 cold.

On the flop you have to bet out. Even if the CO has you beat and raises it isn't bad for you as it will probably get overcards to fold and limit the field.

I was going to say go for a check-raise here, but I think that can only cost you money. This pot is huge and no flush draw is going to fold for any bets at this point. So even if you bet and the CO raises, you will still get called by the flush draws and you can 3 bet. Plus by betting out you protect against the possible check-around.

River is a piece of cake.