Omaha Hi: Playing unpaired starting hands

[tvdad]

No, the question I wanted answered was whether it's worth it to even play four high unpaired cards at all, given the frequency at which the board pairs and the likelihood that with so many callers in low limit games someone will beat my straight or flush if I happen to make one.

I asked because I have been playing hands like AKQJ and AQJT (suited or not) for a long time, only to see them lose consistently to boats. Yes, I fold them immediately if there's any action at all on a paired flop, but even if I flop a straight or flush (on an unpaired flop) I still was losing far too often to boat chasers.

Anyway, I have stopped playing these hands, at least for a while, which means I'm playing so tight now I'm lucky to get involved in a pot once every 2 rotations. It can be incredibly boring, but I am having more success now.

T

[Phat Mack]

No, the question I wanted answered was whether it's worth it to even play four high unpaired cards at all, given the frequency at which the board pairs and the likelihood that with so many callers in low limit games someone will beat my straight or flush if I happen to make one.

This is what I suspected.

but even if I flop a straight or flush (on an unpaired flop) I still was losing far too often to boat chasers.

How often were you losing to boat chasers? How does this compare to how often you should have been losing to boat chasers?

Anyway, I have stopped playing these hands, at least for a while, which means I'm playing so tight now I'm lucky to get involved in a pot once every 2 rotations. It can be incredibly boring, but I am having more success now.

I think you are making a mistake. They are some of the strongest hands you can play. When you flop the nuts, the board will attract chasers to pay you off. When you are counterfeited, they are easy to get away from.

[tvdad]

[ QUOTE ]
How often were you losing to boat chasers?

[/ QUOTE ]

I only started keeping track of the exact stats a couple of months ago. With starting hands consisting of 4 unpaired cards Ten or higher, I have lost 63% of the hands where an unpaired flop has given me a made nut straight, made flush (K-high or better), nut straight draw, or 4-flush draw (K-high or better). This includes times when I missed my draw, or the board paired and either the ensuing betting forced me out or I lost at showdown. It also includes a few times when my K-flush lost to an A-flush. Note that I'll only draw to the straight if the flop is rainbow and unpaired when there are lots of callers.

I won a total of 27 hands when the board paired up on either the turn or river and my straight or flush held up at showdown. In 24 of those hands, I had only one opponent, which tells me that these starting hands play much better against fewer opponents. Maybe I'd be more willing to play them at the higher limit tables, but I'm not happy enough with my Omaha Hi performance yet to move up.

T

[chaos]

I think they are some of the stronger starting hands. On your best days you flop two pair as well as a straight draw. Then any high card makes your hand.

I think four consecutive cards are almost always worth playing provided they are not too small (e.g. 3456). With the small card it is to hard to end up with the nut straight.

[Graham]

I have lost 63% of the hands where an unpaired flop has given me a made nut straight, made flush (K-high or better), nut straight draw, or 4-flush draw (K-high or better). This includes times when I missed my draw, or the board paired and either the ensuing betting forced me out or I lost at showdown.


Sounds like you've been running ok if you've won 37% of the times where you flop a draw or better. Or is that a reasonable no. Seems fine to me, cos you miss a lot of draws/ Figure out the money situation for the hands, not just whether you're winning/losing the pot.

These hands also make boats themselves, as pointed out. You can't not play them if you want to win the most.

G

[Buzz]

TV Dad - There is no one who has posted in this thread (except you) who doesn't think you should play at least some of the AKQJ hands.

But you have to play correctly after the flop. (That's also true for any starting hand).

I submit that if you're not having luck playing AKQJ, at least when it's double suited (or even single suited to the ace), you are possibly playing incorrectly after the flop. The other possibility is that you have simply had an incredibly bad run of luck getting beaten on the river.

As Phat Mack suggests, flopping two pair yourself with AKQJ will often turn out to ge the right combination. (Note that you also will have a straight draw and, depending on your hand and the flop, possibly also a flush draw). But you still have to play this correctly.

But you're correct that you don't have to play this combination. It doesn't come up all that often. 256/270725 is less than one hand out of a thousand.

AKQJ, AKQT, AKJT, and AQJT, taken all together make up about one hand out of every 264. I don't know how long it takes you to get through 264 hands. I'd guess six to eight hours.

On the one hand, giving up one playable hand in all that time isn't that big a deal.

On the other hand, if you're playing tight already, gradually dribbling your money away in blinds or time collection, a couple of big wins will send you home a winner. These non-gap and single-gap ace-high run-down hands are potential big win hands.

When you do make a straight with them, you will usually have a re-draw to a full house yourself. For example, holding AKQJ, you'll have a straight on the turn when the board is T98X, JT9X, QJTX, KJTX, KQTX, AJTX, AQTX, or AKTX. Only for T98X and JT9X do you not have a redraw to a full house. You do have a re-draw to a full house with KJTX, KQTX, AJTX, AQTX, and AKTX. And if you also have a suited ace, you may also have a redraw to a flush with all of these.

I'm convinced AKQJ is very playable, especially if suited to the ace.

We're talking Omaha-high here. In Omaha-8, I might not play AcKdQhJs, AcKcQcJc, AhKdQcJc, AhKcQdJc, AhKcQcJd, or AhKcQcJc - depending. But I'm always going to see the flop with the rest of the AKQJ hands. These are all potential big scoop hands!

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[tvdad]

You know, the weird thing is that I do better with these high card starting hands in Omaha/8. So many people will see the flop with A2xx, A3xx, and other small card hands, that when I do get an all-high flop I can often make one bet or raise and get everyone to fold. Or better yet is when a single low card hits the flop and they all chase the low. When it doesn't hit, the high cards on the board are often good enough for me to win the hand even against another high hand player.

Maybe I am playing these hands wrong in Omaha Hi. But I have been paying attention to all your advice and I'll put it to work. Thanks for having patience with me.

T

[Phat Mack]

AKQJ, AKQT, AKJT, and AQJT, taken all together make up about one hand out of every 264. I don't know how long it takes you to get through 264 hands. I'd guess six to eight hours.

If we set aside the issue of flushes, and address the issue of playing flopped straights and strong draws with un-paired hands, we're talking about a slightly larger pool of hands. In an omaha hi game with 5-6 players seeing the flop, I'm going to take some pre-flop pressure with a hand like JT98r (I'd even throw in some one- and two-gappers), especially in games where I can put players on big pairs by their raising.

I submit that if you're not having luck playing AKQJ, at least when it's double suited (or even single suited to the ace), you are possibly playing incorrectly after the flop. The other possibility is that you have simply had an incredibly bad run of luck getting beaten on the river.

I think these are two strong points. Luck, or varience, plays an enormous role in Omaha--much more than in hold 'em, and way more than in Omaha 8. It's easy to get discouraged by these hands. It can take a lot of paying before the flop, a lot of mucking afterwards, and a few irritating split pots before their value becomes apparent.