Do you take the rake into consideration when calculating Pot Odds?

[chson]

Unlike online, in a live B&M game the rake is taken after the hand is complete. Say you're on a flush draw on the flop which is 4.22 to 1 underdog. The pot contains exactly 4.22 x your opponent's bet. If you call are you getting the correct Pot Odds since the rake has yet to be taken out? Let's not mention implied odds since they are just an assumption that foul up long-term probabilities.

[bigpooch]

It doesn't matter when the rake gets taken, it's how much!

[Lost Wages]

Unlike online, in a live B&M game the rake is taken after the hand is complete.

Hmmm, not anywhere that I have played. Usually the pot is raked on the flop and additional rake is taken as the hand proceeds.

To answer you question, let's consider a simpler situation. You are playing in a $2/$4 game. It's headsup on the turn and the board is A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. You hold 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Your opponent flashes you A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] then bets all-in making the pot exactly $17. You have no implied odds because your opponent is all in. Also, you know that you have exactly 9 outs to make a winning hand. Do you call? You are getting 17:4 = 4.25:1 and you are 4.11:1 against winning so you should call.

Suppose however that you know another dollar will be raked when the pot reaches $20. If you call then the pot will be $21 minus a $1 rake leaving $20 in the pot. Now you are risking $4 to win $16 or getting 4:1 so you should fold.

So the short answer is, yes, you should consider future rake when deciding whether to call but the reality is it's rarely that close and even if it is you are only making a tiny mistake by ignoring the rake. Also, in a real world situation there will be other factors which cloud the decision such as implied odds and the chances that you will make you hand but still lose. Even if you are drawing to the nut flush on the turn, two of your outs will pair the board thus making them uncertain.

Lost Wages

[chson]

Great post. I believe what seperates a long term winning player from a more profitable long term winning player are types of these small calculations.

[spamuell]

Great post. I believe what seperates a long term winning player from a more profitable long term winning player are types of these small calculations.

I don't. I believe what seperates a long term winning player from a more profitable one is the ability to read opponents, understand why they are making the moves that they are, assess their actions to put them on hands, know when to fold and save yourself a bet, know when to call down when pot odds justify it and realise when to bet or raise for value and how to generally maximise your equity. Also, bankroll management, game selection, the ability to stay off tilt, encouraging opponents to make more mistakes, mixing up your play and being generally unreadable.

Whether you're getting 4.11:1 or 4.33:1 on your flush draw really makes very little difference whatsoever, as this kind of situation only happens very rarely, and you'd have to play probably millions of hands for the EV to make a significant difference.

Also, you can almost guarantee at least 1 bet on the river (if not 2) from all but the most weak-tight opponents, so it's clearly a profitable call. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] (Yes, I realise it was just an example to illustrate a point.)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post. I believe what seperates a long term winning player from a more profitable long term winning player are types of these small calculations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spamuell is correct. These types of small calculations are almost irrelevant when it comes to how much you win.

[Ed Miller]

Let's not mention implied odds since they are just an assumption that foul up long-term probabilities.

I don't know what this means exactly, but my "fuzzy poker thinking" detector just went off...

[HajiShirazu]

I would count the pot, figure out the amount taken out for the rake, and then raise.