Pocket Jacks misplayed?

[Wyrm2]

Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
Hero has Jd, Js and is Button

EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3(poster) checks, Hero limps, SB limps, BB checks

Flop(8 SB): 2h, Td, 4c

SB checks, BB bets, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, EP1 calls, EP2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls

Turn(12 1/2 BB): 7c

BB checks, EP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, EP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls

River(22 1/2 BB): 5h

BB bets, EP1 calls, MP2 raises(all-in), MP3 calls, Hero folds, BB calls, EP1 folds


I didn't raise PF because I slavishly following the notion that pocket jacks play the least well against 4-5 players, which I was afraid I would end up with had I raised, in retrospect this is probably not the best play... However, comments on all streets are appreciated, although I am most concerned with the river.

[Trix]

Raise preflop you have atleast five players paying you off, maybe blinds too and if you get a Jack on the flop you will have many hanging around while drawing dead cuz the pot is so big.
The BB checkraise is sorta weird and cuz he got freeplay its hard to put him on anything. At this point I would think either AT or some freak 2pair.
Think you have to call on the river unless you have a real good read on the BB, especially cuz MP2 goes All-In, so you are sure he wont raise again.
Were you 90% sure that you were behind ?

[StellarWind]

Wyrm,

Raise the flop. Yes it can be hard to win with jacks against a big crowd, but the odds are in your favor. Your chances of beating five limpers are better than 1/6, so raising is a value bet. You also may improve your chances of winning by folding a blind or two.

But wait, there's more! As the Button, you may get a free card on the flop when the crowd "checks to the raiser". That's a free extra chance of making a set and winning a big pot.

But there's even more. As a special today-only bonus, you get a free shot to further improve your winning chances by knocking out the extra blind. If you truly aren't sure whether to raise, the presence of an extra blind should always break the tie in favor of raising.

About folding the river with a powerful hand and a giant pot, at the risk of overgeneralizing ... DON'T EVER DO THAT. There is just no way you can be sure enough that your overpair isn't good. If BB has a set or straight you just have to pay him to show it to you. Top players *may* be able to make intelligent exceptions, but down in the land of normal people it's just too risky. Nothing will make you a loser faster than folding winning hands on the river.

[Raiser]

You gotta raise this pre flop. With this many callers in already you could raise almost any good drawing hand and pocket Jacks are much better than that. I'd also call on the river, even given all the action. The pot is huge and you have an overpair to the board. You only have to be the winner 1 out of 14 times for this call to be OK, which sounds reasonable to me at Party.

[Wyrm2]

Thanks for confirming the 2 things I was pretty sure I did wrong there... The failure to raise PF really makes me unhappy as I am trying to be more aggressive. The fold on the river ended up being the right play, but no, I wasn't 90% sure I was beat, but the BB getting aggressive like that made me think he had hit a set or 2 pairs.

The other factor in the river fold is that I would have had to call almost 2 bets cold (the BB and MP2's all-in raise) and I feared a 3-bet from the BB. I thought that combination was enough to fold a hand that I didn't think was good (although I am not sure of that now that I've thought about it).

Anyhow, BB showed t-7o for the freakish 2 pair.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, BB showed t-7o for the freakish 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you raise pre flop. The BB might have folded pre flop.