Protection benefit?

[Ikke]

It's currently 4-handed, limit 100/200.

UTG raises and it's folded to me in the BB. UTG is one of the reasons I like the game. He isnt bad, but I think I have a decent line on his play. He's on the overaggressive side, and a reasonable loose caller (as are most in this limit). Make no mistake though; he knows how to play, but I feel like my style of play benefits from his.

Back to the hand...he raised and it's folded to me in the BB and I call with T8o.

Flop comes K 8 5 with a club flushdraw. I dont have clubs.

I check, he bets and I call.

The turn pairs the 5. Again, I check-call.

River comes the 9 of clubs, and I bet out ...

Regards

[stripsqueez]

i kind of fancy 108o for a raise too but it cant be bad to throw it away pre-flop - i suppose if your confident that you know how this guy goes post flop it becomes a better hand to play

my routine way to play the flop is to check raise - i will vary this to check call and then check raise the turn against an opponent who has to be shown a really big knife to get out of my pot

i dont like check calling all the way - it may have a logical justification but it could also be too scared to decide if your in front

i'm not sure why you bet the river - if your representing a flush do you think he will fold a hand better than yours ? - even good opponents will likely call with a hand that beats you unless you have put a lot of work into this posistion and have a very clear read

maybe i have the river all wrong and in fact you have cultured an image of repeatedly bluffing on the river such that you have bet this time with the intention of ace high calling you down ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Ikke]

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i kind of fancy 108o for a raise too but it cant be bad to throw it away pre-flop

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I agree.

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i suppose if your confident that you know how this guy goes post flop it becomes a better hand to play



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I agree.

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my routine way to play the flop is to check raise

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Here I disagree. Do you think a check-raise will give you information valuable enough to devise an alternate strategy for this hand? If so, what would you do considering all the options he has? I'm especially interested in what you decide to do after check-raising the flop and getting 3-bet.

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i'm not sure why you bet the river - if your representing a flush do you think he will fold a hand better than yours ?

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Absolutely not.

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and in fact you have cultured an image of repeatedly bluffing on the river such that you have bet this time with the intention of ace high calling you down ?


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Would you muck ace good kicker for one bet?

Regards

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think a check-raise will give you information valuable enough to devise an alternate strategy for this hand? If so, what would you do considering all the options he has? I'm especially interested in what you decide to do after check-raising the flop and getting 3-bet


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there are a heap of good things that might happen if you check raise - heads up whats best is always going to be highly opponent dependant and i'm not sure the possibilities are worthy dredging through

if a flop check raise is 3 bet i have to choose - if i thought my opponent would 3 bet with a worse hand than mine a lot i wouldnt check raise the flop unless i had such a good read that he was 3 betting with less that i could cap and bet the turn - against some opponents i will check call the flop and check raise the turn because i know they will likely call the flop raise and i know that if i check call the flop they will bet the turn pretty much regardless of what they have - but - they will be scared of a turn raise

i am not saying that check calling all the way is wrong - but - once you see that flop who do you think is in front ? - the answer is that you are likely in front - you can resign yourself to allowing your opponent to see the river because he has posistion and hope that he chooses to bluff off some bets - or you can do some betting - i prefer to do some betting

i came across a few good players in the paradise 5 max games who might play this sort of hand this way - eventually i am going to work out that raising your river bet with a king is a good idea

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[bigpooch]

Blind defence: seems absolutely correct, given all the
information available you would even defend with as weak a
hand as 86o.

Flop play: check calling is standard and you are most
likely ahead. Check raising also makes some sense here, but
if you think you know enough about your opponent, you must
have decided this was your best course of action. If he's
too aggressive, this especially makes a lot of sense.

Turn play: if you're checking, you have to think that your
opponent is betting a lot of hands here, including an ace
high and low pocket pairs you beat. Of course, he could
also have a better hand, but you do have to at the very
least check call theoretically: your calling frequency must
be at least 13/17 and this hand is easily within the top
13/17th of your hands after the turn. Betting also makes
sense, but maybe you might run into fancy turn-raising or
your opponent has escaped from putting more chips with the
worst of it! I must defer to your view of how your opponent
plays against you. The key question is this: how frequently
do you think your opponent would check the turn? If it is
not often, then you probably made the best play and this is
likely the case if your opponent is overaggressive on the
turn.

River play: betting seems okay as you believe you are
"protected" from being raised and you will get paid off with
a worse hand at times; on the other hand, you believe that
your opponent is just going to show down with an ace or a
small pair for you to make this bet, so this bet is quite
clear if there is little chance you are going to get raised.
Also, your opponent must call/raise almost always: if he
folds significantly more than 4/21 of the time, he's making
a theoretical error, so he'll pay off with some ace high
hands as well as his small pocket pairs and of course, you
may even tie if he has an 8! The difficult question is from
a strategic point of view: was it better to check and call
on the end, or to bet out? That seems like the only major
question that needs to be answered. You did mention that
this opponent seemed to call often, so he will be paying off
with quite a few hands that lose to your last round bet.

So the question is: what round did you have the most doubts
about?

[Ikke]

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if a flop check raise is 3 bet i have to choose - if i thought my opponent would 3 bet with a worse hand than mine a lot i wouldnt check raise the flop unless i had such a good read that he was 3 betting with less that i could cap and bet the turn -

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Exactly. If you decide to check-raise with the tought that he could be 3-betting light, then the consequence will be that you have to 4 bet the flop as well (because if you just call, he can easily gain one SB by checking either turn or river). In position 4-betting certainly can make sense, especially because now YOU have the option of controlling play. But out of position he still has great maximizing opportunities as well as outplaying opportunities (an easy one that comes to mind is that if he decides to see showdown with not many outs on the turn he will raise it there). Point is that it's quite easy for him to let you make extremely tough decisions.

I'm not saying that there arent situations where check-raising is correct; there are heaps of them. But in the situation described I strongly feel that check-raising the flop is quite a mistake. Check-raising the turn is closer, but still can give you tough decisions without really knowing where you're at.

Now since you know (or I hope I made that clear in my first post) that the flop and turn is bet by him if you check, I think check-calling is in this situation way preferable over check-raising somewhere.

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came across a few good players in the paradise 5 max games who might play this sort of hand this way - eventually i am going to work out that raising your river bet with a king is a good idea


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Well yes, that could work. But raising with a king probably only hurts you because I wasnt intending paying off a raise. Bluf raising might be an idea, but I only use this play once in a while. Most of the times I'll just have a flush here (or a rivered set of 9's hehe).

Regards

[Ikke]

Very good analyses IMO.

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The key question is this: how frequently
do you think your opponent would check the turn?

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This indeed is the key question. Answer is almost never.

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The difficult question is from
a strategic point of view: was it better to check and call
on the end, or to bet out? That seems like the only major
question that needs to be answered.

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Well, you answered it yourself IMO:

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betting seems okay as you believe you are
"protected" from being raised and you will get paid off with
a worse hand at times; on the other hand, you believe that
your opponent is just going to show down with an ace or a
small pair for you to make this bet, so this bet is quite
clear if there is little chance you are going to get raised.
Also, your opponent must call/raise almost always: if he
folds significantly more than 4/21 of the time, he's making
a theoretical error, so he'll pay off with some ace high
hands as well as his small pocket pairs and of course, you
may even tie if he has an 8!

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I think that was a great analyses.

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So the question is: what round did you have the most doubts
about?


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Didnt have too much doubt. I posted it mainly because I think not many players will make the river bet, while in this situation is often clearly correct IMO.

Again, good post.

Regards