Advice on proving/nailing the cheat (warning:long)

[rootsmusic]

The Setting:
Weekly home game tourney, $40 buy-in, T1000 to start, 20 minute rounds. Typical attendance is 15-27 players, many the same, occasional friends of friends. Skill level is above average, say only 20% weaker players, 10% very tough, the rest falling within the large grey area of competent. Everyone fancies themselves an enthusiast. 1st place makes approx. 50% of total pool, 2nd and 3rd make proportionally decent share, 4th is paid, 5th gets buy-in back (This is assuming at least 18, otherwise only 4 are paid). Many of the same players are consistent money finishers including myself, having won it 3 times and finishing in money maybe 60% of the time. This is over a time frame of about 8 months. Another player, who has finished 1st approx. 50% of the time, has recently drawn mine and other players' attention.

The Revelation:
This guy, who we'll call Brian, wins this thing with uncanny frequency. At first, I had not had the opportunity to see him in action too much since we coincidentally seemed to be at different tables. I assumed he was just an excellent player. Then, after playing against him for extended periods, including a long heads up showdown for 1st place where I was outchipped 4 to 1 going in and wound up winning, I got to observe his play and saw him to be more in the tight-conservative mold. Frankly, in that matchup he played poorly. Note that a third person was dealing. Never seen him put a play on anyone; never seen him bluff; have seen him make questionable calls then fold on river with Ax vs an obvious AK; when he bets big he has a big hand; never seen one of his big hands get cracked.
However I have seen, at least two times per tourney, him have a big hand and an opponent have another big hand, and Brian takes the opponent out. Specifically, set over set seems to happen at least once a tourney, no exaggeration. He has ALWAYS been on the upside of these confrontations. One time it was his quad A's beating an opponent's quad K's, both holding the pocket pair. What I have just realized is that most every time this happens, he is on the button.
I set myself to thinking, and conferring with others from the game who have also noticed this. In contrast with the other good players who win many of their big pots without a showdown in the middle rounds (pushing in upon sensing weakness; aka making a good play), Brian seems to win by having excellent cards. In fact, no one can remember him winning a substantial pot by any other method, and of course, usually there has been a very nice 2nd best hand to give away his stack. In fact his play in and of itself is not that strong from what I have been able to see; he simply has the better hand and wins. Again, almost all examples of this that I and others can recall occur with him DEALING. Otherwise he is mostly folding or playing tight-weak.

The Question:
Is there any way to look out for and spot a potential card manipulator? What would I look for, supposing he is dealing off the bottom, or dealing the second card off the deck? A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table, or offers to shuffle for others, saying "This deck is shuffled and ready to go." Could he be messing around? Dealing funny? Dropping cards in his lap? More importantly, how do we go about watching for it, and how to bring it up. Obviously if you catch him with cards in his lap, he's busted and banned. But what do you do if you see him deal the second card, or off the bottom. Nobody in this game is really thinking about cheaters...for most it's inconceivable, as it was for me. But this guy is just not that good, and the way he builds his stack is not through superior play, but by calling other people's excellent hands with his better hand when he deals. I mean, even if Phil Ivey played this game every week, he would not win it 50% of the time over a year, right? Some luck is required..and I'm not buying that Brian's luck is that good.

Thanks for all comments.

[symphonic]

No need to catch him cheating, if you and the other guys truly believes he is a cheater, then ask/tell him not to show up anymore for the tournaments.

[JayKon]

Rule #1 any card off the table is dead! This would include the deck when dealing. Also, a very old rule from player dealt lowball/draw days is that the person cutting the cards (you do have the person to the dealers right cut?) to put a riffel on them.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table, or offers to shuffle for others, saying "This deck is shuffled and ready to go." Could he be messing around?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you already suspect he may be cheating, this is a huge question mark. Theres no reason he should be taking the deck off the table to shuffle. Also make sure to have people cutting the deck if you don't already.

If you don't want to confront him directly about it quite yet, then make sure you start cutting and making him shuffle where everyone can see what he is up to. Lets see if his "lucky streak" can continue in the face of a little more observation.

[rootsmusic]

We do cut the deck before dealing, and usually it is the person to the dealer's right, but sometimes it's just a random person at the table.
In another game I played in, they had the person to the dealer's left shuffle, the person to his right cut, and the dealer simply deal..nothing more. I think that might be a good rule to implement.
But I am also wondering if there is any way to spot the cheating when it is happening. What can I look for, or is it too hard to discern if he is good with the cards? If I see him deal from say the bottom of the deck, how best to bring it up without going directly to blows (which might be my first inclination)?
Has anyone had to deal with a similar situation?

thanks again

[Lottery Larry]

In my home game, the previous dealer- now one to the right of the button- shuffles the deck while the current dealer is using another deck. once shuffled the cards are passed to the new dealer- currently in the small blind- who cuts them and deals. that could solve your problem

Make sure to count down the decks every once in a while as well.

No one should EVER be allowed to take the deck off of the table, nor gather his own cards that he will be dealing.

as for catching it there are books out there on cheating- they may have detection methods that you can use.

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple players pointed out to me that he always shuffles the deck under the table,

[/ QUOTE ]

BIG red light here - the deck should never leave the table. Second - do you use a deck shield (cut card)? If not, Start.

Third - I agree with Symphonic (sp?) if you're that sure he's a cheat, just boot him.

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
Third - I agree with Symphonic (sp?) if you're that sure he's a cheat, just boot him.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, have a big, $1,000 buy -in tourney. Get his money, catch him in the act, show him the door!

[baggins]

best idea yet!

[kiemo]

Why would anybody allow someone to shuffle the deck under the table?

This makes no sense to me



BTW love the beardie picture slamdunkpro!!