Flame me for losing a $700 pot...

[Redhot_man]

Party NL 100
SB with 22 (I have a $300 stack, MP+1 has me covered.)

4 players limp, I call, BB checks.

FLOP J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets 10, MP+1 calls, I raise to 50. MP+1 calls and its heads up.

TURN 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I go all-in for $250, He calls with JJ and wins a HUGE pot.

EDIT: My reasoning was that he was on a flush draw and I was hoping to get him to chase after it on the river. I didnt think he could have 99 or JJ because I figured these were easy raises on flop.

FLAME ME!!!

[Redhot_man]

it was actaully a $600 pot.

[muzungu]

Umm... doesn't look too bad at first glance. Set over set is one of those situations where, with an uncoordinated board, a good player could lose their whole stack every time.

I think you've got the right idea, and can expect to be ahead when you make your turn all-in. Not because he should have raised the set, but just because there are a lot of different hands he could have besides it. But that doesn't mean its the right bet.

If you think he's drawing, maybe you should bet a bit less to give him odds that, while still bad, are slightly better, in order to entice a call. I think most flush draws would fold to your all-in bet.

Another thing to consider: he could also have QT for the nut str8. This would have been my first guess. Seems like with your overbet on the turn, you are only going to get called by hands that beat you. Of course, if you bet $100 or so here, and he sets you all in, you still have a tough decision, and in the moment I'm not sure what I'd do (probably player-dependent- if he's loose I shrug, call, and lose my stack).

-muz

[Acesover8s]

As Guy would say, your only mistake is not catching the fourth deuce on the river.

An another note, occasionally there are bets that are so large that they will only be called when beaten. However, on party this phenomenon doesn't exist. On another site I would consider an allin here to be -EV (while allin on the flop may not be).

Another note, leading out with such large stacks may be a better strategy for getting more of your stack in preflop.

[theBruiser500]

Doyle Brunson says it's very important not to lose all your money in an unraised pot. Their might not have been anything you could have done about it in this specific pot, but it's a good point to keep in mind.

Not playing low pocket pairs in the first few positions could also have prevented this from happening. It takes a lot of discipline to fold 22 in the SB though with no raises.

danny

[tewall]

It's really hard not to lose your stack with set over set, especially on line.

I don't think your all-in bet on the turn is bad, considering the propensity for bad calls players have, but I wonder if a smaller bet, maybe $150 might be a little better. You're still going to lose the set over set, but you might win a bit more against the hands you're ahead of by playing that way. $150 is enough to make trying to catch you a bad play. The all-in may get too many hands behind you to fold when you'd rather they stayed in.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Doyle Brunson says it's very important not to lose all your money in an unraised pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I've never really understood this. What difference does it make whether the pot was raised preflop or not?

I have always imagined that the point is that anyone can hold any two cards in an unraised pot, so your read is not as accurate as it would be if the pot were raised. I don't think this applies here, for two reasons:

1) You've got a set for goodness' sake. If you can't commit all your money with a set, when can you?

2) It's Party Poker. Raising preflop makes no difference to what people will come in with.

Guy.

[Guy McSucker]

As Aces said, you were pretty dumb not to catch the fourth two. Basic poker error.

That's almost all I can come up with in the way of flame. You seem to have played the hand pretty well.

I was thinking about the flop betting. The stacks are very deep here, so you're going to have a tough time getting all-in on the flop, which is what you would usually like to do. Or at least, make the pot so big that your all-in on the turn is automatically called.

I'm wondering if betting out and reraising is better. You can get $130 in that way just with pot-size bets and raises. E.g. you bet $10 (slightly under the pot), get raised to $40, reraise $90 more. That's not bad. Now he has to call the turn if he has any sort of made hand, and you've exerted maximum pressure on a drawing hand if it's out there.

But I don't think this is necessarily better or worse than your play.

What's the recommended betting pattern, everyone?

Guy.

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
As Aces said, you were pretty dumb not to catch the fourth two. Basic poker error.

That's almost all I can come up with in the way of flame. You seem to have played the hand pretty well.

I was thinking about the flop betting. The stacks are very deep here, so you're going to have a tough time getting all-in on the flop, which is what you would usually like to do. Or at least, make the pot so big that your all-in on the turn is automatically called.

I'm wondering if betting out and reraising is better. You can get $130 in that way just with pot-size bets and raises. E.g. you bet $10 (slightly under the pot), get raised to $40, reraise $90 more. That's not bad. Now he has to call the turn if he has any sort of made hand, and you've exerted maximum pressure on a drawing hand if it's out there.

But I don't think this is necessarily better or worse than your play.

What's the recommended betting pattern, everyone?

Guy.


[/ QUOTE ]
I didnt have much of a read on this plaer. But I found the way he played this hand particularly unusual. He limps with JJ Pre-Flop, and then doesnt raise when he hits top set on a fairly scary board. Everything about his hand represented Flush-draw, Calling the first $10 bet, then calling my raise. I dont think I could have put him on JJ in a million years.

From his betting patterns, I am not sure that he would have raised a $10 bet on the flop.

[Redhotman]

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle Brunson says it's very important not to lose all your money in an unraised pot. Their might not have been anything you could have done about it in this specific pot, but it's a good point to keep in mind.

Not playing low pocket pairs in the first few positions could also have prevented this from happening. It takes a lot of discipline to fold 22 in the SB though with no raises.

danny

[/ QUOTE ]
If you fold 22 in the SB in an unraised pot, or even min-raised pot, you are losing out on alot of money.