Mason Malmuth on FRONT LOADING

Poker21 · #1 01-19-2004, 04:42 PM

Mason, I recently read your book Poker Essays Vol. 1. and I think you are very wrong about Front Loading not being considered cheating.

For those of you who don't know what front loading is, it is when a dealer is tossing the cards too high(not intentionally) off of the table as he's dealing allowing other players to see their opponents cards.

While this can be an honest mistake by the dealer, if a player can see his opponents cards and is looking at them it is definitely cheating. While I respect you as one of the leading authorities in poker, I believe its irresponsible of you to say otherwise. If it wasn't cheating then that would be like saying the dealer at a blackjack table flashing me my next card to come is not cheating. Front loading put simple is seeing what your opponents hol;e cards are while he can't see yours. If thats not cheating or giving an unfair advantage to your opponent then what is? Since its not cheating I'll fly to vegas and we'll play heads up with me getting to look at your hole cards every hand and we'll see how well you do.

sillyarms · #2 01-19-2004, 04:56 PM

It's not cheating because it's not your fault the dealer is weak. If the dealer and I were in on it together and he was showing me cards on purpose now that would be cheating. As far as it being an unfair advantage. It's true that it's an advantage but is it really unfair? What's to prevent your opponets from doing the same thing?

silly

Mike Gallo · #3 01-19-2004, 05:00 PM

Since its not cheating I'll fly to vegas and we'll play heads up with me getting to look at your hole cards every hand and we'll see how well you do.

Someone appears very cranky before they even hot 20 posts. Relax.

I do not consider this cheating either.

SoBeDude · #4 01-19-2004, 05:05 PM

Cheating is defined by the casino or club where you play.

It isn't defined by Mason, or you.

-Scott

Poker21 · #5 01-19-2004, 05:07 PM

position at the table.

Zetack · #6 01-19-2004, 05:16 PM

Well I have to admit I haven't read the essay. However, my view is that it is not cheating.

On the other hand, I believe that to take advantage of such information would be unethical. I do see a distinction between cheating and unethical behavior.

The sorry state of my own ethical standing is such that if I saw such a thing once or twice I probably wouldn't say anything (particularly if I wasn't planning on getting involved in the hand--the situation is stickier if I was planning on playing). After all, it might be unfair if the hand ends up being declared dead, when one of the players, who's been losing all night, and hasn't been able to see anybody's hole cards, just got dealt AA for the first time in four lousy sessions. But if it was an ongoing thing, I'd definitely have to speak up... (consistent? perhaps not, but there ya go).

Also, the example with the blackjack dealer isn't convincing. Sure you are cheating if you've arranged with the dealer to flash the cards. But if he's doing it accidently, I wouldn't conclude you are cheating. And, given how little sympathy I have for the casino, I'm not sure I'd speak up in that situation. (*sigh* I may have to go off and examine the sorry state of my ethical standing...)

--Zetack

Seenote · #7 01-19-2004, 08:39 PM

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]My friend, you just don't know what your missing. I disagree with you, Malmuth's essay is right on the mark. Why shouldn't any player take "Advantage" of extra information he might receive from a sloppy dealer? Why shouldn't you have an "Overlay", an "Edge". Not only are there sloppy dealers, but there are sloppy players who like to expose their whole cards when they shuffle their cards from left hand to right hand or who likes to lift their hole cards to high off the table so they can read them. This is information available to the entire table. This is why I wear sunglasses at the table.

If you keep you eyes open & your mouth shut you will see alot of dealers & players giving up hole card information. Not only does this happen in poker, but there are other card games on the casino floor where the dealers are exposing their hole cards. These type of things don't happen everyday, but it happens enough where it becomes profitable.

If your playing with or against a sloppy dealer or player...TAKE THEM DOWN!

Seenote

MMMMMM · #8 01-19-2004, 10:53 PM

In Blackjack, it's not cheating unless the dealer and player are working a scam as confederates.

In poker it is not cheating, but sadly, it is all too often a problem as there are many dealers who hold the deck too high or at an angle or who just have a sloppy pitch. Rather than taking advantage of this in poker, I think the ethical thing to do is to call it to the dealer's attention (politely). And since it is such a common problem in poker, it is to most everyone's benefit if the dealers don't flash cards, so please speak up when you see it.

As for pros or players seriously trying to win, there are so many things to observe in a poker game that trying to catch hole cards could be an unwelcome distraction. The good players should win their share anyway without such tactics, but a bad player catching a glimpse of a good player's hole cards will hurt you, the good player. So in poker I think it is a problem better corrected than taken advantage of.

ZeeJustin · #9 01-20-2004, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is why I wear sunglasses at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful. I used to play magic and I once played a guy that gave away his whole hand with the reflection of his sunglasses. I had to refrain from looking into his glasses too often because I didn't want to give it away. Needless to say, I crushed the guy.

eastbay · #10 01-20-2004, 03:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, I recently read your book Poker Essays Vol. 1. and I think you are very wrong about Front Loading not being considered cheating.

For those of you who don't know what front loading is, it is when a dealer is tossing the cards too high(not intentionally) off of the table as he's dealing allowing other players to see their opponents cards.

While this can be an honest mistake by the dealer, if a player can see his opponents cards and is looking at them it is definitely cheating. While I respect you as one of the leading authorities in poker, I believe its irresponsible of you to say otherwise. If it wasn't cheating then that would be like saying the dealer at a blackjack table flashing me my next card to come is not cheating. Front loading put simple is seeing what your opponents hol;e cards are while he can't see yours. If thats not cheating or giving an unfair advantage to your opponent then what is? Since its not cheating I'll fly to vegas and we'll play heads up with me getting to look at your hole cards every hand and we'll see how well you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Mason has made it quite clear that poker is inherently dishonest game. In his words: a "con" and a "hustle."

While he hasn't said so as far as I know, this seems to imply that he feels that "anything goes" at the poker table. After all, as he says, "this is poker, not church."

Draw your own conclusions.