Tourneys: B&M vs. On-line

[LetsRock]

I would like to hear from those of you who have done B&M as well as on-line tourneys.

Do B&M tourneys have the same "flavor" as the on-line multis?

Should I expect my B&M performance to be similar to my on-line results?

Should I be able to consistently beat a $20 multi (ie finish in the money) before I go play in a $200 B$M tourney?

Does the buy-in level equate to tougher competition or are all tourneys (excluding the major events of course) basically a matter of getting cards or not?


By flavor, I guess I'm talking about the maniacal nature of so many players continually shoving their stacks in all the time. For example, I played in a multi last night that started with about 300 players. There were 10 players busted out before I even saw my first flop. I pretty much had nothing cards and finished in the top 100.

This seems to be pretty typical for the tourneys I play in on-line. I haven't done a lot of multis (30?), but I'm working on my tourney skills in hopes of someday taking a shot at some of the big events. (Someday being the key word here.)

A little about my tourney experience:
I find, that in tourneys, my results are directly related to whether I'm catching cards or not. I rarely finish in the money, but almost always get in sight of it. I can't seem to catch hands at those "key" times when I need to. I'm not real aggressive most of the time, and it seems that whenever I try to push things a little, someone else always manages to have (or catch) just enough to cripple or kill me. Like I said I'm working on this. I don't know if this is just the way it is (are tourneys basically just a lottery for the most part?) or if I'm missing some key to playing tourneys vs. cash games. But that's a different thread....

The reason I'm asking about this, is that I'm considering heading up to Reno in March for their spring tourney and entering a few of the "lower" level events. I've never played in a live tourney (aside from a couple home tourneys that I've hosted) and I'm curious as to what kind of "expectation" I should have for myself.

I know I'd be walking in there as pretty much dead money which is OK with me; I'd be doing it for the experience and entertainment value as much as the possible win. If I were fortunate enough to win one of the low-level events, I'd be tempted to pony up for one of the bigger events (where some of the "famous pros" are likely to be) to continue my "education".

Aside from the entertainment value, would this be a complete waste of my poker dollars?

[Iceman]

"Do B&M tourneys have the same "flavor" as the on-line multis?"

Play tends to be tighter in B&M.

"Should I expect my B&M performance to be similar to my on-line results?"

Roughly similar, yes.

"Should I be able to consistently beat a $20 multi (ie finish in the money) before I go play in a $200 B$M tourney?"

There's no way to "consistently beat" even the smallest tourneys. The best tournament players only average maybe 2x the buy-in - they bust out far more often than not. Think in terms of your skill level relative to the other players, and to whether you really understand the game and understand the situations you face - that tells you if you're ready. Start with smaller buy-in B&M tourneys first if that would make you feel better about the large ones.

"Does the buy-in level equate to tougher competition or are all tourneys (excluding the major events of course) basically a matter of getting cards or not?"

Both statements are partially true. There is a very high luck factor in most tourneys, but it's usually still possible to have a significant edge except in cases of ridiculous structures or very tough fields. Quality of play definitely rises with the buy-in as a general rule. The type of game also matters - the luck factor is highest in limit holdem and Omaha-8, moderate in stud and stud-8, and lowest in NL holdem.

"By flavor, I guess I'm talking about the maniacal nature of so many players continually shoving their stacks in all the time."

Which is very advantageous for a good player. I'd be grateful if people did that in the games I play.

"For example, I played in a multi last night that started with about 300 players. There were 10 players busted out before I even saw my first flop. I pretty much had nothing cards and finished in the top 100."

With nothing cards, there's very little you can do - the luck factor is so high that even with perfect play, you won't do well in some tournaments and there's nothing you can do about it. If you want 100% skill and 0% luck, play chess.

"A little about my tourney experience:
I find, that in tourneys, my results are directly related to whether I'm catching cards or not. I rarely finish in the money, but almost always get in sight of it. I can't seem to catch hands at those "key" times when I need to. I'm not real aggressive most of the time, and it seems that whenever I try to push things a little, someone else always manages to have (or catch) just enough to cripple or kill me. Like I said I'm working on this. I don't know if this is just the way it is (are tourneys basically just a lottery for the most part?) or if I'm missing some key to playing tourneys vs. cash games. But that's a different thread...."

As before, tourney's aren't a complete lottery, but the luck factor is higher than in cash games. If you aren't "catching cards" at the key moments, make sure you make the right adjustments in your play for situations where (1) the blinds are high relative to your stack, and (2) you are close to the money.

"The reason I'm asking about this, is that I'm considering heading up to Reno in March for their spring tourney and entering a few of the "lower" level events. I've never played in a live tourney (aside from a couple home tourneys that I've hosted) and I'm curious as to what kind of "expectation" I should have for myself."

If you can do well in online multis, then no problem in real life. If you feel your game still needs work, then stick to low-limit B&M tourneys until you're confident you know how to play all phases of a tourney.

"I know I'd be walking in there as pretty much dead money which is OK with me; I'd be doing it for the experience and entertainment value as much as the possible win. If I were fortunate enough to win one of the low-level events, I'd be tempted to pony up for one of the bigger events (where some of the "famous pros" are likely to be) to continue my "education"."

If you want to do it as "education", that's fine. But you might get better experience at the same cost playing 10 $20 buy-in tourneys online than entering one $200 B&M just for the experience.

[LetsRock]

Thanks for your reply. Everything you said is pretty much what I expected to hear.

[ QUOTE ]
If you can do well in online multis...

[/ QUOTE ]

What is considered doing well? In the money x%? Winning x%? Outlasting x% of the field consistently? Say finishing top 10-20%?

I plan to continue to practice on-line as there just aren't many options for cheap B&M tourney's in my area that I know of. If on-line provides pretty much the same training base, then I'll just keep at it there.

Thanks again.

[dandy_don]

I played in my first B&M NL hold'em tourney this past Monday at The Grand in Tunica. I was surprised at how loose the tourney was until it got down to the final 20 players. Now some of it was due to newbies there at the casino or in town for the holidays that knew very little about the game; you could tell by the way some of the people were constantly needing information regarding general rules.

Also, the tourneys I have played at Stars did not prepare me for the wildness of a "Rebuy" tourney. The first hour, you were allowed to purchase Rebuys and it was more like a crap shoot with 3-4 players constantly going all-in and would have the money ready for their Rebuys before the flop was out. I was there to play poker and they were there to gamble. I did have a great time eventhough I just missed out of the money.

[Iceman]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can do well in online multis...

[/ QUOTE ]

"What is considered doing well? In the money x%? Winning x%? Outlasting x% of the field consistently? Say finishing top 10-20%?"

In tournaments with hundreds of players, you can't really rely on your short-term results. You would have to play a very large number of events before you could really have a clear idea of your EV. Instead, look at the major hands you played in a tourney, and think about whether you played them right or whether you should have done some things differently. Think of which parts of a tourney you're having trouble with, and also think about which aspects of your tournament game are your strengths - you might look for a B&M event that fits those strengths.

"I plan to continue to practice on-line as there just aren't many options for cheap B&M tourney's in my area that I know of. If on-line provides pretty much the same training base, then I'll just keep at it there."

SNGs, or single-table tournaments, are a great way to get tournament experience quickly at a low price - maybe even better than online mutis. SNGs give you experience with (1) shorthanded play, (2) play in situations where the blinds are high relative to the stacks, and (3) play when you're near the money or in the money.