2-4 hand on UB flopping top two

Eric P · #1 12-08-2003, 11:16 PM

Just now playing 2-4 table on UB.

I have JTo in BB and check with a four person pot (including me). Flop comes
Jd Td 3d
SB bets i raise lp calls 2 cold, SB raises i cap it hoping to get a free turn. LP calls.
turn As
checked through. River is a black four and SB bets i call LP folds.

Any thoughts?

JohnShaft · #2 12-08-2003, 11:30 PM

I don't know Eric. I guess you could be beat.

You know what though? *You want* a Free Turn? *I* don't want to GIVE a free Turn.
Maybe the SB has AJ with the A of D (or maybe just AJ). LP for sure wants the Free Turn, when he checks it through for you. I just don't give people crediting for flopping a flush. If the flop hit him in the face good luck to him.

So I'd like to think I'm ahead on the Turn (maybe it's wishful thinking) and I don't want to give a free River which causes me to
a. lose a bet (or two).
b. more importantly, lose the hand.
Especially when there's two in and you can be pretty sure a diamond buries you.

You know what, if I'm behind so be it. I'm betting the Turn. Colour me overaggressive.

Eric P · #3 12-08-2003, 11:41 PM

my thinking was that i was certainly beat once i was three-bet. The only hands i could beat that would three bet are a worse two pair which is semi-unlikely, or QQ AA or KK with a diamond. With two other people i waas fairly sure one of htem had a made flush and the other had the lone high diamond. SB had the flush i didn't check what lp had

JohnShaft · #4 12-08-2003, 11:45 PM

Good, you made the right read.
But here's the thing. I don't think SB was setting you up for the Turn CR, do you? I think you'd have only put a single bet in on the turn.
Did SB have a small/med flush, and you'd scared him with all the flop action?

Beat once you were three bet? Maybe. AJ could have done that. Diamond or not. And maybe Ad T.
Admittedly there's not too many hands you can put an opponent on here. But he only 3-bet the flop.

You were right though. And I'd have hated to be CR on the Turn. But I'd really have hated it if I'd given them the free card to hit the flush. Maybe you were right in this instance though.

WillMagic · #5 12-09-2003, 12:25 AM

Your strategy on this is extremely strange. You want a free turn? Huh? That's the last thing you want to do with a three-flush on board. You want to make this guy pay for his draw. You have, have have to bet the turn. And assuming you check the turn, you have to raise the river.

Will

JohnShaft · #6 12-09-2003, 12:41 AM

Will, Eric was assuming his 2-pair was behind to SB's flopped Flush. So that's why he wanted the Free Turn.
It turns out he was right. In this instance.

But, personally I'm not sure if this is a good idea in general.

If SB does have a flush he's not going to lose much more anyway (1 bet, 2 if he CR's). (Especially as SB didn't even look like he was going to Checkraise the Turn)
If he doesn't have the Flush you are losing a bet (or two) on the Turn, and *much worse* risking losing the entire pot.

This is the thing about *reads* and being results oriented. Playing the hand correctly *in this instance* is fine. But if you do this 100 times you could well be making a big -EV play.

Eric P · #7 12-09-2003, 03:13 PM

It's hard to say for me, if another diamond doesn't fall i am seeing a showdown, unless SB bets out i call and LP wakes up and rasises. Now on the turn being check-raised hurts bad becuase if i am behind i'm drawing real thin (~10:1). I'm not *risking* losing the entire pot like this was a no-limit tournament, anyone with a red card will the turn this pot is so big, i know that doesn't mean i shouldn't bet, but i could be losing to trips also. Trips is another hand that will check to me, and maybe i wasn't being check-raised, but the way this table was playing i'd say i was losing on the turn about 80% or more of the time. Giving a free turn is not the disaster you guys are making it out to be, especially when i'm fairly convinced that i'm GETTING a free turn.

JohnShaft · #8 12-09-2003, 04:19 PM

No I don't think it's a disaster Eric.
I think it's probably the right thing to do *if you are very confident* you are behind to the Flush from the SB AND he will CR the Turn.
If he won't CR the Turn (and are you sure he was going to?) then I still think it's right to bet (unless he shows you his cards) given that you can't be certain he doesn't have something like AJ, or Ad T.

You could be losing to trips? You could be. Consider though that is *very* unlikely. You have top two. The chances he has the case Jacks or Tens (particularly considering his lack of PF raise) are very, very slim. That really only leaves him with 33.
Otherwise you have him beat, or he has the Flush. And I think you really can narrow it down to them options.

Losing the 7.5 BB pot *would* be a disaster, but you are right in that it doesn't look like either of them will fold after calling four bets on the flop. I guess a fold probably can be discounted.

No, I don't think you played it wrongly, in this instance (even ignoring the result).

ElSapo · #9 12-09-2003, 04:37 PM

my thinking was that i was certainly beat once i was three-bet.

If that was your thinking, then your cap is no good. However, there are a lot of hands that will three-bet here that you do beat.

Ignore for the moment that he did indeed have the flush. AJ and overpairs will likely three-bet here, because many times someone with a big diamond raises their bet looking for that free turn... His three-bet doesn't have to mean you are behind.