The definitive post on 22s v 33s (with some comments on 55s)

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to expand? I proved my theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's true that you will still have 650 left after going through the blinds in the example you give. However, that 650 amounts to just a tiny bit over 2xbb, leaving you with no FE whatsoever. Not only will the pot often be raised in front of you, but even if it's not, you'll often still have to win a showdown just to survive. It's true that you may pick up a better hand in the next orbit, but even if you push & win, you'll still have only slightly more than you did when you folded. There's also an opportunity cost to folding...if you get called & win, you will have a pretty big stack & the greater number of profitable opportunities that come with it. If everyone folds, you will have FE even after paying the blinds, and stand to win a lot more if you pick up a good hand & get called.

Since so much of it comes down to FE, I like folding much more if you're almost sure you'll get called anyway.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to expand? I proved my theory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's true that you will still have 650 left after going through the blinds in the example you give. However, that 650 amounts to just a tiny bit over 2xbb, leaving you with no FE whatsoever. Not only will the pot often be raised in front of you, but even if it's not, you'll often still have to win a showdown just to survive. It's true that you may pick up a better hand in the next orbit, but even if you push & win, you'll still have only slightly more than you did when you folded. There's also an opportunity cost to folding...if you get called & win, you will have a pretty big stack & the greater number of profitable opportunities that come with it. If everyone folds, you will have FE even after paying the blinds, and stand to win a lot more if you pick up a good hand & get called.

Since so much of it comes down to FE, I like folding much more if you're almost sure you'll get called anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would like to hear your thoughts on why you disagree.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]

i would like to hear your thoughts on why you disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 3 reasons.

1. Results. I played about 7-8k sngs in which I open shoved any time I had 3-5 bb. I have played about 2k sngs in which I play patiently through the blinds (provided that they are big.) My results playing the latter have been much better.

2. It is relatively easy to pick off. If I notice that a solid player who is short shoves utg, I will call with a very liberal range. I can say that 7/10 times, they are not holding what they are supposed to.

3. Just because you dont have 3 bb doesn't mean that you don't have FE. We have all been in situations in which we have 2 bb, but the bb has 3 bb. He isn't going to be calling with a wide range here all too often.

For the most part, I used to play like you, but Rojosox and I had a conversation over AIM, and it has served me well. Another thing to consider is that many fishies have something that I like to call bassakwardseliminitus. In other words, instead of properly working on stealing from the mid stacks, they bully the short stacks with nothing because they think that the goal is eliminating opponents. Essentially, getting 2:1 with T3 against 78 is a beautiful situation.

[yvesaint]

ive been 4-tabling the 55s for 15 roi the past 2 weeks. only 20 or so a day so really no sample size to speak of

but im not looking to "double up" early. im looking to play solid hands early on, and use early reads to see who the loose donks are at the table, and hopefully get in with a good hand v. them. by the 50/100 level, im glad to have a stack around 1500. sometimes ill capitalize on a donk and double up through him, but a lot of the chips i get during the first three levels are through solid value betting

after that its a lot of blind stealing, followed by bubble play. blinds are so high by this point if im not a big stack, im doing the push/fold thing a lot.

90% of the players i face at the 55s, including multi-tabling "regulars" (McShove comes into mind) dont seem to play well post-flop in the first three levels. i find my NL cash game background helps a lot here - i tend to see way too many people overvaluing hands when they still have 30+BBs in their stacks.

[yvesaint]

also i cannot comment on 22s 33s or lower because i started with the 55s. i can only assume the post-flop play there is exponentially worse than what i am seeing here.

[johnnybeef]

A few points....first off, the 55s are a different animal than what I have been playing the last month and a half.

[ QUOTE ]
but im not looking to "double up" early

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that perhaps the most interesting thing about the party sng is that it is highly possible to fold your way into the money. As such, I agree. But, lets face it doubling up early definately helps your chances of cashing.

[ QUOTE ]
by the 50/100 level, im glad to have a stack around 1500.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh absolutely. I usually am happy with t1100 at level 4.

[ QUOTE ]
after that its a lot of blind stealing, followed by bubble play. blinds are so high by this point if im not a big stack, im doing the push/fold thing a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

SHHHHHHHH!!!! The thing about the 55s is that you usually don't have to play pushbot poker too often as the blinds dont get too too big until level 8.


[ QUOTE ]
i find my NL cash game background helps a lot here - i tend to see way too many people overvaluing hands when they still have 30+BBs in their stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the reason that I am still at the lower levels is due to the fact that I played a ton of mtts in the last two months without any significant cashes. I can full well say that playing a 30 bb stack is the hardest part of mtts, so your statement hits spot on. Your nl cash experience is definately helpul.

[yvesaint]

its even more important in 55s as i just realized lower buy-ins DONT have the 1000 starting chip stack (which is also why i think the 55s are pretty fishy to start with)

i find the blinds start to get high once they hit 150/300 but i often find myself getting very aggro by the time they hit 100/200, sometimes even 75/150

doubling up early definitely helps you cashing, of course, but from what ive seen, it doesnt help as much as you'd think - i find a lot of times how my early game goes in levels 1-3 does not affect the outcomes of my games as much as i thought it would. which is why there are some simple things i excersize early on:

- pot control with 1-pair hands (can be more important than 'protecting your hand' in many situations)
- playing in position
- much less completing/playing from the blinds

i just find that playing a nice, aggro game later on helps a lot more in terms of cashing/1sts. you steal blinds once at 75/150, thats 225 chips right there w/o a single showdown, while at levels 1-3 thats a good-size pot that you have to have the best hand to show down with

[ilya]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I will try to give a coherent rebuttal when I have a bit of time.