Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum

[Jdanz]

i respect the argument but in this case i disagree (or possibly i don't disagree, but there might not be any reason to be talking about the issue then.

First of all we're working with terms like race that are inherently fuzzy. I sincrely doubt anyone can adquetley define what being black is. Secondly the issue was frames in terms of taking responsiblity, which to me implies choice, choice is an active element that isn't chaos.

The orignal poster certainly doesn't view "the rap fad" as chaotic, he views it as an irresponsible choice (i tend to disagree, but that's neither here nor there). The OP is simply not concerned with chaos theory.

I personally don't see these macro effects as the result of chaos, but of way leading to a way in a logical manner. However, i believe these causal linkages are so confusing and complex as to be to a large degree unintelligable, certainly as they're acting, maybe for all time. This while importantly different is largely indistinguishable from chaos.

The problem with accepting this view, is then there is no discussion. If social change is based in chaos then there's simply no reason to disucss it, as chaos plays such an unknowable but significant role that any active policies effects would be almost completely unpredictable.

Yet history has shown that it is in fact predictable. For instance American history tells us that in two or three generations an immigrant group is basically assimilated. If we're going to talk about blacks in comparison to them, then they immigraten en mass at the VERY EARLIEST in 1965, and imagine were not treated equitably at that point (and are still not treated equitably now). However this is/has been true for many other groups and i have great faith that it will be true for the black race as well, given a long enough period of ability to coexist without active and systematic discrimination.

The reason i say this is because if you look thoughout history this is invariably true, no race has shown any prediliction towards greatness above any other. The "Great" civilizations have occured spontaneously all throughout time from a variety of races, hence i have to reason to think race is not the causal issue of black under achievement. However there is a very compelling (though certainly not provable) explination in as much as it's only been 40 years since we legislated inequality.

People act as if slavery was over in 1860 and then everything was cool, why hasn't the black buisness community established itself like the white? well try being a black person and getting a loan up until almost yesterday. I'm not trying to say there isn't a difference between blacks and whites in America, but i have every reason to believe that this has to do with 300 years of inequity as opposed to consious choice over 40 years of freedom.

edit: sorry for all the grammer/spelling i'm just a lazy bastard and i just finished a final.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not saying social change is BASED in chaos; rather, that chaos contributes something, that's all.

But more importantly, I am saying that regardless of chaos theory, you are definitely employing a false dichotomy in your argument, because it is untrue that different groups of humans will always produce the same results under the same conditions. Humanity is far too diverse for that to be the case. This is so whether you are talking about groups of "race," or about other groups.

[MMMMMM]

Another way to look at this, Jdanz, is to imagine the following: two random groups of 1000 humans on two isolated islands in the South Pacific. No outside influences whatsoever. Would they independently develop the same cultures, religions, languages? 300 years from the outset, might they not have widely differing customs, learning, etc? Even if enormous differences did not exist after 300 years, you can be sure there would be many smaller differences, and varying cultural developments and traditions.

Therefore, it would be wrong to assert that all in culture is developed EITHER due to historical pressures or racial predilection. In this imagined scenario, the false dichotomy of such a choice would be readily apparent. And it is also a false dichotomy to argue that all black culture must either be the result of long-past historical influences or racial predilection. Culture is something that is evolving, developing, growing all the time, and even building on itself; and it is created in the present moment, as well as carried on.

[Jdanz]

i think i may have mispoken in my first post, but i think my following post made it clear that i do agree with you.

Groups certainly diverge, i mean black skin has to do with an evolutionary bottle neck, i'm not saying that groups aren't different.

What i am saying is that there is a massive amount of evidence that black underperformance is not in fact due to this bottleneck but due to historical oppression. I happen to have studied the Irish famine pretty extensively, but having a pretty fair amount of knowledge about that, i see them as a near perfect parrallel for a society where one groups social and economic rights were systematically disrespected.

I can't think of any other group where the laws that held them from owning land or participating in government were so similar, so when i look towards the history of the repeal of these laws (in the Irish case) i see what i expect to happen in the black case, an incredibly slow and painful process of overcoming historical disadvantage.

I'm not argueing that groups aren't different, i'm argueing it would be absoultely absurd to think that because we changed some laws a little while ago that the race's economic situation should now be similar. This is quite like pvn's dislike of the somalia arguement, it completely ignores incredibly relevent historical context.

groups are different, but it's pretty clear that the difference in how "black america" has developed stems from other reasons then that.

First of I want to aplogize for not reading all the responses to an excelent topic..its been a long day and Im tired so Ill make it quick. I have the distinct advantage of growing up in an all lower income, black community(Im white, but dont hold that against me..hehe) My observations if you will..many black americans feel a sense of entitlement, and can you blame them, decades of federal assistance, where you are rewarded for dropping out of school and having children out of wedlock in the form of a gov. check which rivals that of a min. wage paying job. I saw first hand women having more kids in order to get more money or selling then food stamps for cash, sad but true. There is no greater recipe for disaster then single, uneducated, moms raising kids, our prisons are find examples of this. At best youre almost destined for a life of struggle and mediocroty. Black students who would try to excell in school were called or accused of "acting white" and that wasnt meant as a compliment. Remember, many Asians grow up in these same neighborhoods, and there were a few sprinkled throughout my hood, the difference being they came from a very strict two parent home with parents whose only concern was making sure their kids made it. Of course I saw that in black homes as well, just not as prevalent.

The ironic thing of it is that as far as racism is concerned, until very recently, areas of large black populations(innercities) were, are, almost entirely dominated by left leaning local black politicians or their white counterparts. I have more thoughts and observations but Im tired.

[BluffTHIS!]

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I can't think of any other group where the laws that held them from owning land or participating in government were so similar, so when i look towards the history of the repeal of these laws (in the Irish case) i see what i expect to happen in the black case, an incredibly slow and painful process of overcoming historical disadvantage.

I'm not argueing that groups aren't different, i'm argueing it would be absoultely absurd to think that because we changed some laws a little while ago that the race's economic situation should now be similar. This is quite like pvn's dislike of the somalia arguement, it completely ignores incredibly relevent historical context.

groups are different, but it's pretty clear that the difference in how "black america" has developed stems from other reasons then that.

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I think you are making an inappropriate comparison/analysis here. Regardless of the historical context of racism which has held back blacks in america, the appropriate time frame for the arguments I gave in my long main post in this thread is the past 30 years. During that time period follwoing the Civil Rights movement of the 60s, Asian immigrants have come to America in large numbers and prospered via the paradigm I gave above. Also for another comparison, one can even look at the Chinese who were induced to come here and work as little better than slaves on the railroads in the west and then see how their descendents faired.

But the key point of my cutural analysis is about RIGHT NOW. Those defects of culture that I mentioned you have not attempted to rebut, because they can't be rebutted. They do exist and they do hold back the black coummunity. So the crux of the matter is what is the black community willing to do in order to change those aspects of its culuture, including especially as I recommended purging itself of the gang rap teen-sex culture, and adopting an emphasis on education and pooling their economic resources to build themselves up.