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  #1  
Old 12-15-2005, 04:49 AM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default The truth, always the truth

[ QUOTE ]
"The establishment of full diplomatic relations between Israel and the Holy See ... in December 1993 ..."

[/ QUOTE ]A bit late, wouldn't you say ? That was the point Peter666 was making.

As to the other point he is making, yes, as I believe George Steiner put it, Hitler begat Israel.

Not that the Holocaust was purposefully used by the Jews to start the chain of events leading up to Israel's creation. But, yes, they did take advantage of the huge (and quite justified) wave of sympathy that engulfed civilised humanity after the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis became fully known to the world.

- Yes, there were probably exaggerations (and possibly huge exaggerations, given a persecuted people's propensity to exaggerate their danger and misery).

- Yes, the number "Six million dead" is possibly an exaggeration.

- Yes, the state of Israel, from 1948 onwards, could have followed a radically different path than that chosen by the extreme nationalist ruling faction of Reformed Zionists that led the new state towards a status of permanent confrontation againsth both the indigenous people and the neighbors.

- Yes, the Israeli State has used the Holocaust for devious and sometimes odious purposes. And so have many, many Jews, as well. (See The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering by Norman G. Finkelstein.)

Yes to all the above, yes, and yes again. SO WHAT ? The holocaust of the Jews and other unfortunates at the hands of Nazism remains a momentous, colossal crime in human history, possibly quite unique in its diabolic combination of supremacists ideology, systematic murder and use of technology. *


Once more, it doesn't matter what the exact purpose of Gas Machine Nr 10 in Buchenwald was. It doesn't matter if the typhus epidemic was caused by the Nazis (it wasn't, as far as we know) or if it happened because of the prevailing conditions in the camps. It doesn't matter if the little girl was separated from her mother because the Nazis needed to work the mother to death or use the child in a "medical experiment". It was a holocaust. It was mass murder to the degree of a crime against humanity.

Every Nazi fugitive that remains alive should be captured, tried and punished under the World War II's laws and agreements.

--Cyrus

* : The holocaust is also notable for the extent of the civilian population's participation in Germany as well as in other countries, a subject which still remains a taboo, and NOT discussed amongst polite company... The Poles, the French, the Austrians, the Dutch, the Ukrainians, the Latvians --ah, the Latvians!-- and many other nations have still not atoned nor apologized for their progeny's crimes against humanity during WWII.
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2005, 12:33 PM
Gamblor Gamblor is offline
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Default Re: The truth, always the truth

Not that the Holocaust was purposefully used by the Jews to start the chain of events leading up to Israel's creation. But, yes, they did take advantage of the huge (and quite justified) wave of sympathy that engulfed civilised humanity after the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis became fully known to the world.

Hate to break it to you, but the State of Israel would have been created regardless. The movement was strong long before the Holocaust was even a gleam in the eye of a prisoner in an Austrian jailhouse. The Holocaust was merely the last straw.

Yes, the state of Israel, from 1948 onwards, could have followed a radically different path than that chosen by the extreme nationalist ruling faction of Reformed Zionists that led the new state towards a status of permanent confrontation againsth both the indigenous people and the neighbors.

You still haven't figured out that the Reformed Zionist movement is a direct consequence of the Holocaust? That European anti-semitism built this Iron Wall, as you're so fond of putting it?
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  #3  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:47 AM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default Re: The truth, always the truth

[ QUOTE ]
The State of Israel would have been created regardless. The movement was strong long before the Holocaust was even a gleam in the eye of a prisoner in an Austrian jailhouse.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you seriously suggesting that "the movement" was strong enough to make a grab for Palestine at the time that Adolph Hitler was in jail?? (BTW, Hitler was jailed in Bavaria and not Austria.)

That would be around 1924. You folks had only the Balfour Declaration to go on. Think that alone would have carried the strategic interests of the superpowers of the day ?

This is all speculative but ...I don't think so!

[ QUOTE ]
You still haven't figured out that the Reformed Zionist movement is a direct consequence of the Holocaust?

[/ QUOTE ] The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

You are not too careful with your dates, are you ?

(And I don't mean the shiksas.)

[ QUOTE ]
European anti-semitism built this Iron Wall.

[/ QUOTE ] Nah. You built it yourselves.
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  #4  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:58 PM
Gamblor Gamblor is offline
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Default Bavarian doughnut

The term "Holocaust" is usually used in reference to the mass murder of Jews in World War II. I have the dates for World War II as September 1939 - middle of 1945. And I have the birth day of Reform Zionism as 1935 at the latest, which was the year that the World Zionist Organization failed to accept Jabotinsky's program, and he seceded to form the New Zionist Organization. But Jabotinsky was promoting his ideas long before that. Hell, he died in 1940! There was no known Holocaust at the time, and certainly no "direct consequence of the Holocaust".

0 points for this answer.

German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939, my friend, but i won't dwell on that. These guys will, though. The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

Why do you insist on taking such banally obvious underlying circumstances and ignoring them!

Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

BUT!

As you are keenly aware, the movement itself was outcast within mainstream Zionism! No support! No nothing, outside of a few violent splinter groups in Palestine and some political-types in Europe. Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

Of course, the movement remained outcast for a while and on the periphery of Zionist politics. It didn't emerge as a real opposition candidate to ben Gurions Labour Zionism or even enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H...

well, I'll let you finish that one.
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  #5  
Old 12-16-2005, 09:30 PM
Cyrus Cyrus is offline
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Default Dates, dates

[ QUOTE ]
German-legislated persecution of Jews, if not mass murder, began long long before 1939.

[/ QUOTE ] Legislated persecution, yes. Mass murder, no.

I had the opportunity to say this to someone else here, over an exchange of PMs : Even if "the cause is just", it does not pay (certainly not in our day and age) to lie or exaggerate about it, under no circumstances. What usually happens is that the lie and the exaggeration are unmasked and the oppositions grabs onto those and tries to bring down the whole cause. E.g. The Revisionists "prove" that "less than six million jews died" (e.g. 5.9 mln), ergo No Holocaust!

Back to the issue : The Nazis started passing anti-Jewish legislation and anti-many other things legislation as soon as Hitler became Chancellor. (Which does not register as "long long before" in my book but I won't quibble.) They did not start the mass murder until well into World War II, when they set up the camps inside Poland and the death machine cranked up also in Germany.

[ QUOTE ]
The general consensus holds that the Holocaust began with the enactment of the Nuremberg laws, in 1935.

[/ QUOTE ] Nope, that is certainly not "the general consensus". The racial laws spawned the Holocaust but did not enact it. Historians trace the start of the crime even earlier, when Hitler outlined his sentiments (and hinted broadly at his intentions) in My Struggle.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, Jabotinsky was a Russian, so it's more likely his ideas came from somewhere else (hint: starts with "P" ends with "ogroms")

[/ QUOTE ] 0 points for this answer.

At the time of Jabotinsky, the Soviet Union was experiencing its more tolerant period, relatively speaking, as far as Jews were concerned. The persecutions at the top of the power echelon were not affecting the Jewish masses in the USSR. Anti-Jewish pogroms were a czarist specialty.

Jabotinsky did not need to have suffered any "real world traumas" to formulate his ideas -- an ideologue does not need any such, not necessarily. These are facile, American B-movie kind of "explanations" for men's actions or ideas. Jabotinsky found "cause" in Jewish history to formulate ideas such as his -- and, as to whether or not they were "correct", that is another subject.

[ QUOTE ]
Given ultra-nationalist Europe and "Arabia" at the time, a Jewish nationalist movement was only to be expected!

[/ QUOTE ] True, true.

[ QUOTE ]
[Reform Zionism] didn't ... enjoy any mainstream public support, until sometime around the end of the H[olocaust].

[/ QUOTE ]..which is around 1945. Which means Reform Zionism (a virulent, ultra-nationalist, intolerant and irredentist movement like Britain's BNP, France's National Front, etc) and its equally odious offshoots DID enjoy mainstream public support ever since Israel came to be!

We agree... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
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