How are loose-passive opponents easy to beat?

[el_grande]

I have a very difficult time against loose-passive opponents.

OK.. I'm still relatively new to holdem compared to a lot of you folks, and this is kind of a bad beat rant, but I have yet to see how loose-passive opponents are good to go up against. Every book says you want these kinds of players, and in the long run you will win money from them.

I think my question is legitimate. When you are in a ring game with a bunch of loose-passives and you are playing premium hands, you are usually ahead preflop and on the flop but you've got 4 or 5 players on a draw. One of them is going to hit their draw on the river a good part of the time.

I am trying to build a bankroll at $.50/$1 Party. Last night in 2 hours I got AA 2 times, KK 3 times, AK 3 times, and QQ 1 time. I lost every one of those hands. With AA, the flop comes 3 of a suit I don't have and there's a bet with two callers so I have to fold. With KK I would bet the overpair all the way to the river and an Ace comes and I get beat by a guy who has been calling me with A4o. Yes, I am raising pre-flop.

I understand that drawouts are part of the game, but when you've got several players on a draw and you are the one charging them, doesn't it work against you?

Any advice, even if it is just "keep doing what you are doing" is appreciated.

[Nottom]

Loose-passive players are great. Sure they will suck-out on you a lot, but at least they generaly don't make you pay to much to see what random trash beat you. In the long run, they will lose more money then they win by playing this way, and that extra money will end up in the pockets of the tighter players.

Post some hands if you want to know what you can do differently or to find out if you need to just keep doing what you are doing.

[el_grande]

I don't know that I've had many hands worth posting. It's very straightforward stuff. I'm playing like a Lee Jones WLLHE robot.

Another thing that kills me about loose-passives is that they don't tell you when they have a hand. I'll sit there betting top pair all the way to the river and they turn over AA. This has happened to me many times on Party. They check and call with it the whole hand, even preflop.

The fact that they are not getting everything they can out of AA doesn't help me much. The fact that 5 players are on bad draws doesn't matter either because one of them will hit it. It's kinda like 1,000 ants killing a spider. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that drawouts are part of the game, but when you've got several players on a draw and you are the one charging them, doesn't it work against you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no. Let's say there is both a flush and a straight draw on the board. There are 9 more cards to make the flush and 6 additional that will make the straight. That is still only 15 cards out of 47 that will kill your top pair of kings.

Let's say someone also has an ace. Now there might be 3 more cards. That's still only 18 cards out of 47 that will beat you. That is only a 38.2% chance you'll be beaten on the turn card and another 39.1% chance you'll be beaten on the turn. The total chance to be beaten by the river with 18 cards that beat you is 62.4%.

You might say, aha, more than half the time I'm going to get beaten! Yes, but the times you win you win from 4 different people. So let's say it costs you $10 to get to the river. 62.5% of the time you lose your $10. 47.5% of the time you win $40. If you do this 100 times you'll lose $625 and win $1,900 for a profit of $1,275.

This is an extreme case of 3 people on reasonable draws against you and you still come out ahead over time with top pair. It also doesn't count the times you hit a full house to top the flush or straight. In most cases you'll be against one or two reasonable draws and you'll be winning 2 out of 3 times or better.

This is why loose-passives are so desirable. They chase even when it is not correct to do so and just keep feeding you the money. They also do not punish you when they have the best of it. Yes, they will hit their draws sometimes, but in the long run it does not make up for the times they miss.

Because of lady luck, in the short term you can be beaten and it feels like you'll never win when people hit a series of draws. It has happened to me over just these past 2 weeks. But, in the long run if you are playing proper starting hands and playing good basic strategy post-flop it will work out.

[ResidentParanoid]

Play 4000 or 5000 hands, expecting to win about 0.04 to 0.1 BB per hand (depending on how bad they are and how good you are). At that point, you may have some minimal data
(and profits) to assess yourself with.

[squiffy]

If you really are playing like a Lee Jones robot, you should be making money. Are you?

[el_grande]

Let me reiterate that this ranting has to do with Party. I've been playing on UB for a while and haven't had any of these problems since the $.50/$1 players are generally more solid over there.

I guess I need to play more hands, since I have yet to do this on Party in about 1000 hands. Seriously. I have yet to win a hand being ahead wire-to-wire against 5 or more post-flop opponents. I've looked at PokerTracker.

All of the big pots I have won on party are when I get into a raising fest with an idiot who isn't afraid of the nuts, which I have.

[lil']

Any advice, even if it is just "keep doing what you are doing" is appreciated.

Ok, keep doing what you are doing!

Seriously, you had a crappy night. I had a crappy night last night too. It happens. But the times your aces and kings hold up will make up for the times they don't in the long run. It didn't work out last night, but it will over time.

[pufferfish]

It took me a long time to appreciate loose/passive opponents. Top/over pairs just aren't going to hold up as often, but when they do half of the table will have paid you off.

You can also play more drawing hands at these tables and generally draw very cheaply. Think about the times you hit your big hand on the flop or turn and had three chasers to the end. You're not going to complain about that are you? You don’t get the big pay off when your hand holds up without having to give back a little – think of it as fish welfare. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TC,
pf

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]

I have yet to win a hand being ahead wire-to-wire against 5 or more post-flop opponents. I've looked at PokerTracker.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to win hands, you want to win money. There is a difference.