Floor ruling, Excalibur $1/3 NL

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If they are being shuffled back in they can come back out. It doesn't matter who saw what. The only time you need to be aware of exposed cards is when they are being killed, and not shuffled back in.

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Really, so if there was a board with three Queens on it, and you held pocket aces, it wouldn't be advantageous to you to have seen that there is still a Queen in the deck. If there are three Spades on the board wouldn't it help to see 7 spades still in the stub.

In the case here one or two players have seen almost one third of the remaining deck and they have the advantage of knowing both that those cards are live (not mucked by other players or burned) and that their opponents don't hold those cards.

[Randy_Refeld]

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If they are being shuffled back in they can come back out. It doesn't matter who saw what. The only time you need to be aware of exposed cards is when they are being killed, and not shuffled back in.

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Really, so if there was a board with three Queens on it, and you held pocket aces, it wouldn't be advantageous to you to have seen that there is still a Queen in the deck. If there are three Spades on the board wouldn't it help to see 7 spades still in the stub.

In the case here one or two players have seen almost one third of the remaining deck and they have the advantage of knowing both that those cards are live (not mucked by other players or burned) and that their opponents don't hold those cards.

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There is another situation where exposed cards matter that they are going back in. On the turn an Omaha player can be facing a bet deciding whether or not to call with a gut shot staight flush draw against a paired board. Suddenly the dealer burns and turna the river and puts up the staigh flush card. THe palyer deciding waht to do just had their 1 outter go from 43:1 against to 4:1 against (the card will be shuffled with the other 4 that are in the stub).

Any information that is avaialable to one player should be available for all players.

[MikeQ]

Yeah, I'm a [censored] good call.

[joeboe2001]

The following is cut and pasted directly from Robert's Rules of Cards:

MISDEALS


1. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands. (If two players have acted in turn, the deal must be played to conclusion, as explained in rule #2)


(a) The first or second card of the hand has been dealt faceup or exposed through dealer error.


(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.


(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.


(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.


(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.


(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).


(g) The button was out of position.


(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position.


(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.


(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.


2. Once action occurs, a misdeal can no longer be declared. The hand will be played to conclusion, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.


With all due respect, where does all this stuff about reshuffling the cards from? I know that is done when the dealer turns a card over before everyone has acted, but I don't see anything in the rules about doing so in a situation like this.

According to the rules, it looks like if all these cards were exposed and no one acted after they were exposed a misdeal should be declared. As was done, though the floor was just "winging it."

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The following is cut and pasted directly from Robert's Rules of Cards:

MISDEALS


1. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands. (If two players have acted in turn, the deal must be played to conclusion, as explained in rule #2)


(a) The first or second card of the hand has been dealt faceup or exposed through dealer error.


(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.


(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.


(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.


(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.


(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).


(g) The button was out of position.


(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position.


(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.


(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.


2. Once action occurs, a misdeal can no longer be declared. The hand will be played to conclusion, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.


With all due respect, where does all this stuff about reshuffling the cards from? I know that is done when the dealer turns a card over before everyone has acted, but I don't see anything in the rules about doing so in a situation like this.

According to the rules, it looks like if all these cards were exposed and no one acted after they were exposed a misdeal should be declared. As was done, though the floor was just "winging it."

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I think you misunderstand. The rule says once action occurs, a misdeal can not be declared. In this case there had been action. It doesn't matter that action didn't occur after the cards were exposed, you simply can't have a misdeal at this stage in the hand. If the cards had been exposed before any action had occurred (for example the dealer dropped the deck before he finished dealing out the hands and exposed the cards at that point it would be misdeal.

[MikeQ]

How about this? The girl who didn't see the exposed cards gets the option of either taking back what she has VPIP, or playing out the hand. Then the cards are reshufled, and the hand continues.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

The girl who did not see the cards may not realize what a huge disadvantage she's in, so that wouldn't be in accordance with keeping up the fairness and integrity of the game.

al

All I can say is that I count myself a fair if not good floor person and I struggle every day and question why I am taking it up the bum and working the floor rather than making another 20k/year dealing.

As for the decision, all I noticed anyone say was "the dealer F'ed up". No one presented a solution to the actual situation of "the dealer picked up the cards and now what".