TT makes a set with a draw heavy flop, ugly turn card

[RustyCJ]

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OK I surrender. I remain lost as to when you actually do use this play. I don't want to start a long conversation here but I really need some help on this....Help!!!

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Here is my reasoning for raising this flop, rather than waiting for the turn, on this hand. This is a hand that can beat straights and flushes easily, on the flop I have 7 outs for the turn to make a FH or quads, if the turn doesn't pair the board then I have 10 outs at the river to make a FH or quads.

I think waiting to raise the turn when a brick falls is applied to hands like overpairs that need to "protect" their hand and they are raising when their pot equity went up because a brick fell.

[Shillx]

I don't think everyone here is understanding the point. This hand is not totally about having the option of raising the flop or raising the turn.

If someone put a gun to your head and said that you could only raise one street, then yeah maybe you should wait and raise the turn (though I don't know which is better since raising the flop has other advantages as well). The thing about the flop is that we can raise it, get a ton of value and then raise the turn too and get a ton more value. The other thing is that sometimes we don't get the chance to raise the turn if we just call the flop. What if everyone checks to us should we just call the flop? One more thing is that you start to build a pot while people are more willing to call you. By building a big pot now, you hope they continue on 4th street with hands that are either drawing thin or dead.

When you add it all up, you have a very clear flop raise IMO.

*grunch*

Preflop and flop both look good.

The turn seems like an obvious raise. Sometimes MP3 will 3-bet, in which case you call, hoping to pick up the boat or quads.

River seems like an O.K. spot for a laydown against a 3-bet.

[Greg J]

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I would like to see you explain further, greg.

My reasoning for wanting to raise the turn is that we don't want to give cheap cards to a lone [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9, or K. The straight draws might even fold if they don't have a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. If MP3 3-bets or no one folds, that's okay because we have many outs to our boat+.

I agree that the river is a good fold, but not so much because of SB (what could he have that makes sense to play this way? 22? J2?). No, i'm worried about passive MP3 bet/3-betting the river.

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I hope this makes sense as I am a) hyped up on caffeine and b) also very tired from working on my dissertation (I finished chapter three!! Yeah eat it bitches!).

Okay, the turn looks scarey. You should raise 1) for value. There is a very good chance you have the best hand. Loose passive players are prone to bet like this when they hit 2 pair -- they are not always good at reading boards and might not even notice the 3 flush until you raise it. Plus even if he has a flush you have 10 outs to beat him, so raising is not a big mistake even when you are behind. What is a big mistake is to let a gutshot or a lone mid diamond draw cheaply to beat you. That is why I said what I did. So basically yeah you are on the right track here.

Now I'm going to read the other responces. I like this thread.