top 2, monotone flop, big pot - Page 3

DeathDonkey · #21 11-26-2005, 02:33 AM

Value bet the river.

-DeathDonkey

PassiveCaller · #22 11-26-2005, 02:53 AM

I ignored the river since I didn't really mind his decision. If he thinks he can fold safely to a raise then a bet isn't bad but with the LAG things get trickier. Actually I'd probably even want my opponent to be predisposed to just call even with some of the stronger diamonds that aren't nut to bet since I really don't want 2 bets in on this river, like ever and I dont want to just fold to the lag as practice. So basically he needs loose and passives for this. And in practice I really really just want 1 bet to go in on the river and want it to be 1 bet headsup.... so how do we accomplish this....sounds like check.

The river is sick and if he isnt sure he can check, and call 1 and fold a lot easier as an overcaller yielding probably a better net result (being able to fold if its 2 back to him, fold if hes an overcaller and never having to fold after betting). Not hugely -EV/+EV either way with pot size so the ancilliary reasons to want to take a route most conducive to showdown make it best for me and is often the best route in short handed limit hold'em for other meta reasons. Yeah Yeah I've convinced myself ranting I like check more just thinking about what can happen action wise.

surfdoc · #23 11-26-2005, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Value bet the river.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you are the villian.

#24 11-26-2005, 03:01 AM

who's folding a diamond?

me454555 · #25 11-26-2005, 03:44 AM

The point of this value bet isn't to fold a diamond but to get money from people who have to call b/c "the pot is too big to fold". CO 3 bet and button called 3 cold pf. They've already called a ton so why would they fold on the river in a huge pot for 1 bet. These guys will call w/Ax, Kx and almost any PP b/c why the hell not. Hero can also fold to a raise b/c no hand that he beats would raise this.

On top of this, villains are less likely to bluff at this pot b/c its not HU. The presence of 2 other opponents makes a bluff far less likely. The result of the 2 statements is that the villains will not likely valuebet a worse hand than heros but will value bet a stronger hand than heros. They will however call w/a weaker hand than heros but raise a stronger one. Since we agree that hero has to call 1 bet on the river anyway b/c of the size of the pot, betting is a better option than checking

surfdoc · #26 11-26-2005, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The point of this value bet isn't to fold a diamond but to get money from people who have to call b/c "the pot is too big to fold". CO 3 bet and button called 3 cold pf. They've already called a ton so why would they fold on the river in a huge pot for 1 bet. These guys will call w/Ax, Kx and almost any PP b/c why the hell not. Hero can also fold to a raise b/c no hand that he beats would raise this.

On top of this, villains are less likely to bluff at this pot b/c its not HU. The presence of 2 other opponents makes a bluff far less likely. The result of the 2 statements is that the villains will not likely valuebet a worse hand than heros but will value bet a stronger hand than heros. They will however call w/a weaker hand than heros but raise a stronger one. Since we agree that hero has to call 1 bet on the river anyway b/c of the size of the pot, betting is a better option than checking

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good analysis and horrible analysis all at the same time. There are retards in this game and random, retarded desperation bluffs are more common than 15:1. I am willing to miss a fraction of a bet to avoid losing the entire pot. Not to mention sometimes these guys chicken out with a crap diamond or have a set that froze up by the scary board and I save a bet when behind.

me454555 · #27 11-26-2005, 04:04 AM

Your not going to get the pot stolen from you against guys w/those stats. If they raise, they've got you beat. No one has played their hand like they have a set so I wouldn't fear that. If they do have a set and play it that weak there also might be a chance they fold it.

In my mind it comes down to whether they will call more often with a crap hand or they will freeze up w/the a low diamond/bluff at the pot. I believe they will call more often w/a hand you beat than freeze up w/a low diamond or bluff so betting is the right play.

I'm making these assumptions based on the fact they button has been calling the whole time and co seems to like his hand as well and may look you up.

As a side note, I think you have to include AK in the hand ranges of CO and button and getting them to fold just once in a blue moon is HUGE +EV

DeathDonkey · #28 11-26-2005, 04:05 AM

You said this way better than I could have.

-DeathDonkey

surfdoc · #29 11-26-2005, 07:48 PM

Here is a look at the entire hand. The guy turned out to be a super dooper nut job so I am sure glad I didn't bet/fold the river because he was definitely crazy enough to raise the river. Thanks for the replies.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (14.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.20 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Jh (two pair, aces and jacks).
CO has 7c Kc (two pair, kings and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 16.20 BB.

POKhER · #30 11-26-2005, 08:06 PM

I think you played this hand perfectly and can call the river with no regrets.

Just my 2cents, Kind of tired so skipped a few posts.
p.s. guys please quote eachother when replying, when threads get large they get confusing.