Lossing at O8 limit, I think I'm too tight, too passive

[Buzz]

Allow me to correct an error. I wrote [ QUOTE ]
“With four cards in the same suit, it's not much different from a rainbow hand - a tad better, but closer to a rainbow in terms of how it simulates than to

A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].”

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually Ah3h5hKh simulates closer to Ah3h5cKs (single suited) than Ah3d5sKc (rainbow). There are 15 distinctly different varieties of A35K, but some of them don’t play much differently than others. Following are simulation results for some of them. These are all for eight non-folding opponents with random hands. 10000 times each:
<font color="white">_</font>
hand........high.....low.....scoop.....total...... .prototype
A35Kd.....444.....929.....823.....2196.....Ah3h5cK c
A35Kd=....379.....980.....677.....2036.....Ah3c5cK h
A35Ks.....306.....1008.....679.....1993.....Ah3h5c Ks
A35Ks”’....298.....986.....650.....1934.....Ah3h5h Kc
A35Ks-....320.....996.....604.....1920.....Ah3s5cKc
A35Ks””...284.....991.....599.....1874.....Ah3h5hK h
A35Ks-”’..284.....1001.....545.....1830.....Ah3c5cKc
A35Ks=...248.....1024.....508.....1780.....Ah3s5sK c
A35Kn.....218.....1027.....415.....1660.....Ah3d5s Kc

As you can see, the four heart hand simulates more like a two heart hand than a rainbow.

With apologies for my error,

Buzz

Thanks for the sim Buz. I'm taking from your description you set the sim to have all the players allways go to showdown. I'm not sure what the conclusions would be as far is whether the hand is +EV or not. My gut is that it is but not by much. But what do I know? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Jim Morgan]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's better to bet this yourself, if you plan to continue. And I think you have to plan to continue. Otherwise, I don't think you can play the hand to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

With good position, I might try betting this, but in poor position I just don't see it. Even calling a single bet seems pretty weak to me. I am facting another A3 or an A2 more often than not and my high is a joke.

It seems like my profit is pretty small for the times where my A3 is good for half or a quarter. When I am drawing dead to a deuce (and maybe still only for a quarter) I lose a lot of chips. Even if A2 is only out there one-third of the time, it seems like a bad move in a pot that wasn't raised preflop (and if it was, there is s much stronger likelihood of an opposing A2).

Jim

Isn't this a simple check and fold?

[benwood]

Fep,consider this.You are probably playing more tightly &amp; passively than an experienced Omaha player using optimum strategy,but that is what you should be doing.Until your judgement develops through experience,discretion dictates that you take a cautious viewpoint in call/fold,raise/call,&amp; check/bet decisions.In this example hand,you tried to force yourself to call when your gut feeling told you it was wrong(&amp; it was).You're approaching the game correctly. Just give it some time,&amp; as your judgement improves,you will increase your looseness/aggressiveness naturally &amp; correctly.Good luck. Ben

I am not a huge fan of this hand, especially being from early position. However, most of the time Im probably finding a way to limp in with this hand.

On the flop, I dont mind you leading out at this pot. However, I have found in most cases this a futile attempt to win any money here. With 5 other players in this spot, I doubt your A3 low is any good here. And if it is good, I will be shocked if you arent getting quartered. (assuming you dont get counterfeited by the river) I honestly just check/fold this one down. If you had any shot at high, then I would take a stab at this pot. For example, If you had a A375, then I would lead. However, I would hardly ever check/call down in a spot like this. I think thats a very bad way to play it.

On the turn, you still have your 2nd nut low ... and zippo for high. Nadda. Zero. Cero. Nothing. You are praying just to split. This is a routine fold on the turn.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
With good position, I might try betting this, but in poor position I just don't see it. Even calling a single bet seems pretty weak to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jim - I don't see check/calling here at all. If I'm going to play here, I'm going to bet this hand/flop.

Check/folding after this flop would be a more conservative approach and doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I am facing another A3 or an A2 more often than not and my high is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like my profit is pretty small for the times where my A3 is good for half or a quarter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

[ QUOTE ]
When I am drawing dead to a deuce (and maybe still only for a quarter) I lose a lot of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. Depends on what happens after you bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if A2 is only out there one-third of the time, it seems like a bad move in a pot that wasn't raised preflop (and if it was, there is s much stronger likelihood of an opposing A2).

[/ QUOTE ]

.... A pre-flop raise doesn't necessarily indicate A2XY in my typical games. How likely depends on who raises.

I think A2XY is out there closer to half the time than a third of the time (which actually makes folding more appealing).

I'll run a sim from after this flop and grab a turkey sandwich while awaiting the results.

O.K. All set.

77...2406....147....total is 2630. Call the e.v. 26.30%. With four opponents, anything above 20% seems like it might be profitable.

I used six opponents with random cards. That's one more than saw this flop. I included an extra hand to account for selectivity before the flop. (You're not exactly facing opponents with random cards after the flop).

Done with that first turkey sandwich. (It was only a half-sandwich). Let me run another sim with eight opponents while I get another snack.

O.K. All set again.

64...1951....82....total is 2107. Call the e.v. 21.07%. This one is closer to 20%, barely better than 20%.

You're right about high being a joke. (The hand only probably will end up winning high a few per cent after this flop).

But the hand isn't <font color="white">_</font>drawing for the second nut low. The hand already <font color="white">_</font>has the second nut low - with a shot at nut low with a five back-up.

So I don't know. Is the hand profitable with this flop when five opponents also see the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a simple check and fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see taking the more conservative approach and check/folding. Check/folding doesn't seem terrible to me. But neither does betting - and betting is more fun.

Buzz