QQ

[brettbrettr]

I don't see why raising the turn is much better than calling the turn.

[winky51]

Call down is the best play. Most likely hand is a set or 2 pair. If he is on a draw you want him to bluff at the river. Raising on the turn accomplishes nothing when your behind 2 pair or better. Even if he has a draw or even double draw he has good enough outs to win. he might even have a pair and a draw. Also consider if he has a set you have 2 outs to win and 4 outs to tie.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a lot of thought for a 2/4 player.

This can also be a guy with 88 betting into the field with "top pair" and then turning an OESD.

It's just really hard to define the hand from a guy with no reads at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, even dumbing it down to a typical 2/4 players level then.

Limp UTG, likely has suited connectors, small pp or better.
Bets the flop against lots of players, has some interest in his hand, a draw or better.
Turn, one draw comes through, he bets.

Based on this, i'm still giving approximately equal chances to him betting a draw or weak made hand we have beat, and him betting two-pair or better to avoid a free a card on a super draw heavy board.

Player is unknown, I would like to showdown my hand. If I raise and he has a straight, i'm possibly paying 4 bets to see a showdown. If I raise and he has a draw, and misses the draw, I likely win 2 bets. If I raise, and he has a hand that I have beat like 88, I likely win 3 bets. If I raise, and he has a draw, and hits his draw (lots of potential outs against us) I likely lose 3-4 bets.

If we calldown, I lose two bets max, or win 1-2 bets.

The ratio of bets won:bets lost assuming we're approximately a coinflip would make calling down of greater value.

I stand by my "typical call down response".

edit:

I should also add, when we're ahead he have lots of outs against us, if we're behind we likely have 0-2 outs.

[B Dids]

The guy called a raise in the SB, didn't limp UTG.

I'm agreeing now that a call might be better on the turn. That's an awfully coordinated board.

[krimson]

Oops, read the hand wrong. That certainly changes things slightly, but I think the range is pretty similar.

[sweet wicking action]

i'm going to chime in here, only because i think i might have some more insight into the play of really weak players. what if the villain is really bad? like me? you could put him on any sort of heart draw, especially one with the 7h in it. the posts previous to mine gave good reason to not fold, despite the possible legitimate holdings of the villain. however, i dont think enough weight is given to the possibility of him thinking he's best with Kh7h. I've thought it before. Other people must also.

Hey, if I'm way out of line with this thought, feel free to let me know. I don't think I've read enough of the forum to know whether or not this sort of thing goes without saying.

Thanks.

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why raising the turn is much better than calling the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Stealthy]

I am folding here about never. With no read or against a fairly aggressive player I will raise the turn and call down against anybody else. I expect to win plenty often enough to make seeing a showdown easily +EV. I don't like this fold at all.