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#1
10-31-2003, 07:47 PM
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What would you do?
Still trying to learn my way around No Limit. Thanks for your comments.
Online entry-level NL ring game (big blind = $.50), $50 buyin max. Mixed field of some smart players, some wilder players, I am the shortest stack with $30. Biggest is $150, avg is ~$60. Preflop: 2 folds and I open-limp with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], with the intention of folding if raised. The game has been passive preflop, with the field usually being narrowed on the flop. I know this is normally a loose move. It's folded, then mp player (with $60) limps, limp, limp, button folds, sb completes, bb checks. FLOP ($3, 6 players) : J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Checked to me, I bet $2.50, MP immediately to left minraises to $5, it's folded back to me and I call. Now my notes on this guy is that he is solid and usually plays cards appropriately. Not a wilder player. I feel there is a good chance I am beat, but my hand is pretty decent and I have some outs. TURN (Pot ~$13): Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Now I have top two with Q-high flush draw. What would you do here? Bet? Push all-in? Check-raise or check-call all in? Check-fold? I decided to go for the check-raise. I checked, he put me all in. Would you call or fold? 
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#2
11-01-2003, 12:18 PM
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Re: What would you do?
Case for maths.
77 66 JJ Are possible hands. If you include 67s then your call at the end becomes more math complex than this. Your call at the end should be dependant if you have the pot odds to chase your flush and boat, nothing else. My turn play would be very very player depends here. If i think he is aggressive enough to raise a single pair i'd checkraise the turn as if you lead into him you aren't going to get that raise. If i have a good read on him having 67s and he's aggressive i'd lead my betting into him and wait for the raise. If he is totally passive i'd checkcall. If they board was aboard with more possibility for 2 pairs i'd be playing very different again or if i was against a player who was aggressive with draws.
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#3
11-01-2003, 02:21 PM
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Re: What would you do?
Hi rootmusic,
<<Preflop: 2 folds and I open-limp with [QJs], with the intention of folding if raised.>> Limping with the intention to fold if you are raised is almost ALWAYS a mistake. Unless you're willing to stand a modest raise on a hand, don't limp in with that hand. That having been said, QJs isn't a bad hand to limp in on. << FLOP ($3, 6 players) : Js 7h 8h Checked to me, I bet $2.50, MP immediately to left minraises to $5, it's folded back to me and I call.>> This is a situation where I'd have reraised at the flop to see how committed he is to the hand. You have top pair and a good-but-not-nut flush draw. If he's holding Ax or Kx of Hearts, you want to run him out now, before you get burned on the under-flush. If he has JJ, 88, or 77, you'd like to know that too, especially when ... <<TURN (Pot ~$13): Qc Now I have top two with Q-high flush draw. What would you do here? Bet? Push all-in? Check-raise or check-call all in? Check-fold? I decided to go for the check-raise. I checked, he put me all in. Would you call or fold?>> This is why I'd have reraised at the flop. If he called that reraise, I'd put him on an overpair or a set. The set is more likely, given the absence of a pre-flop raise. If he'd re-reraised me, I'd be damn near certain he has a set. At that point, you'd have known where you were, and you wouldn't have been left scratching your head when he moved in over your check-raise at the turn. Cris
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#4
11-01-2003, 04:00 PM
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Re: What would you do?
I agree that more aggressive action should be taken on the flop when he gives you the chance: you have a very big hand which is a favourite over an overpair with two cards to come, so it's worth pumping the pot a bit. CrisBrown gave other good reasons to reraise.
Now you are behind only a set or a straight, but you have up to 13 outs. I call. Against most online players I expect to be in front a decent amount of the time, and if not I can suck out. (While I'm here, I'd like to register a bit of disagreement with Cris's suggestion that limping with intention to fold if raised is always bad. Sometimes there are hands that you play for implied odds, and a raise kills them; but your chance of getting an unraised pot was big enough to justify the initial call. I'm not saying this hand is one of those situations - I'm mainly thinking of small pairs with stacks of around 20BB - but they do come up.) Guy.
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#5
11-01-2003, 04:03 PM
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Re: What would you do?
Guy,
<<While I'm here, I'd like to register a bit of disagreement with Cris's suggestion that limping with intention to fold if raised is always bad. Sometimes there are hands that you play for implied odds, and a raise kills them; but your chance of getting an unraised pot was big enough to justify the initial call. I'm not saying this hand is one of those situations - I'm mainly thinking of small pairs with stacks of around 20BB - but they do come up.>> That's why I said "almost always bad." [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Cris
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#6
11-01-2003, 04:21 PM
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Re: What would you do?
That's why I said "almost always bad."
Ooops, so you did. You did put "ALWAYS" in caps though, so I think I can be forgiven for getting a wrong impression... Sorry for misunderstanding and then misrepresenting your opinion. Smiley right back at ya [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Guy.
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#7
11-01-2003, 07:53 PM
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Re: What would you do?
I disagree with more agression on the flop if your read on the player is solid. i.e. he doesn't have an overpair; At _bare min_ he has top pair better kicker so usually you aren't anywhere near favourite and at best you are still not a favourite. It also sounds like you have little to no chance of making him fold too.
Had your hand been middle pair + flush draw then more aggression here is better but still not ideal. Also noting for this player it's at least 2:1 he has a set compared to 2 pair. I also disagree with a rereraise for information, have a little faith in your read.
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#8
11-01-2003, 11:14 PM
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Re: What would you do? AND Results
Thanks for all the comments and advice.
Regarding the preflop limp, I WOULD have been prepared to call a moderate raise as long as it was multiway or heads up, especially with callers in between, up to 3x or 4x the blind, but would have folded instantly to a larger one. Sorry for not specifying that correctly in the post. Regarding the flop, I had basically come to the conclusion that "information" reraises needed to be much rarer in no limit than in limit (doing it all the time). They need to be able to steal you the pot a large % of the time to be worth it, it would seem, not just clarify your read on the opponent. But in this case I think it probably would have been a good play. It likely solidifies my read and lets me fold to a large reraise. Truth is I felt that I was probably against a set, since he limped after other limpers in mid position and did not raise. This sort of ruled out a big pair for me later on in the hand. I basically put him on 77 or 88. Thanks again for your time. -------------------- RESULTS Though I thought I was behind, I felt I couldn't fold this hand, looking at 13 probably good outs. I called, the river came 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he flipped over 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and took the pot with the straight.
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#9
11-02-2003, 11:16 AM
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Re: What would you do? AND Results
[ QUOTE ]
But in this case I think it probably would have been a good play. It likely solidifies my read and lets me fold to a large reraise. [/ QUOTE ] By the time that larger reraise comes you aren't going to have much of a stack left so you'll probably be right in calling for your flush anyway then, due to the -EV expense that your rereraise for information cost you. Sure, it will make your decision easier because you'll be making a +EV call due to your flush but only because of a bigger -EV mistake you made. [ QUOTE ] Regarding the preflop limp, I WOULD have been prepared to call a moderate raise as long as it was multiway or heads up, especially with callers in between, up to 3x or 4x the blind, but would have folded instantly to a larger one. Sorry for not specifying that correctly in the post. [/ QUOTE ] I searched but couldn't find, Homer made a post in Small Stacks about limping with KJ in limit then folding to a raise because the opponent would only raise with AK AA KK, lots of players said it's wrong to limp with a hand then fold to a raise, clarkmiester came in and laid down the theory of it to prove them wrong. I don't call raises with your hand at all.
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#10
11-02-2003, 11:19 AM
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Re: What would you do?
with slightly different conditions, a strong case can be made for simply pushing in on the flop. you have a unique type of hand that cannot be overlaid in both directions: if he has a better flush draw, he cannot have a better made hand, and vice versa. in fact, if he had raised bigger, perhaps to $10, you can't even consider calling: raise all-in now or fold.
the min raise complicates things. your all-in bet would now be a tremendous overbet of the pot. thus, i think you made the right choice by flat calling on the flop. on the turn, you have an interested dilemma. even though you have top two pair, it is hard to imagine you are ahead. still, you do have 13 outs. unless i knew the opponent to be a rock, i call for the combined chances that i have the best hand or will outdraw him. with 13 outs, you only need to have the best hand about 10% of the time to show a profit on this call.
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