Feel Pretty Stagnant

[adam61]

Just asking a general question for people who went through this. I played about 3000 $10+1s before learning about 2+2. Played another 1,000 $10+1s after learning about 2+2 (there was also a 6 month break in there when I started a new job). Then I played about 800 $20+2s 4-Tabling. Bought a second monitor and moved to 8-Tables and played about another 800 20+2s since then. Had about an 18% ROI 4 tabling the $10+1s. 14% 4 Tabling the 22s, and around 12% 8 tabling the 22s.

I guess my real problem is a couple things. After 5,000+ or so low limit SNGs I guess I feel like I should be at the 55s or something. I feel like I'm willing to apply myself but time can be short sometimes ( I Play 12 hours or so a week, about 300 22s a month). My biggest problem is I have trouble identifying my leaks. This could be largely because portions of SNG play are counterintuitive. Maybe I miss things about stack size, miss opportunitties to be aggressive, or get too aggressive in a weaker table with 4 players. Because of this I have trouble figuring out where to ask for help in my games, what hands to post, what questions to ask etc.

I feel like I've gotten over all the early hurdles of poker play. I've molded myself into a disciplined, thinking, patient, selectively aggressive player. But I'm missing a lot of the finer points, and even after what I consider tons of reading it's becoming very hard to translate those into my game.

So my question is this. I'm sure many players have gone through a long stagnant spell, what did you do to break it, or did you ever break it? What are some suggestions about how to learn a little more about the game? I use SNG PT, about once a week I go through and check all my larger pushes, or all-ins and see if I'm off. Is being a 12% ROIer at the 20s just something you should settle for, is it possible I'm just not strategically intelligent enough to push my play further? This isn't a whine post, I do fairly well usually make $800+ a month, but it's been like that for a year, and I don't feel like I've gotten that much better, I just want something to get myself jump started and feeling like I am getting stronger each month. Thanks!

[skipperbob]

You could ask for a "coach" (not me)....But if you were paying somebody to coach you, it might motivate/result in a higher level outcome?

I'm in almost exactly the same situation (minus the 8-tabling... want to get another few thousand in before I buy 2nd monitor). I too would be very interested in any comments by the pros.

[GtrHtr]

High volume of play results in higher $ per hour.

Low volume of play results in a better player.

That makes sense.

[ilya]

I would make 4 recommendations:

1, take shots at higher levels, playing only a couple tables at a time.

2, consider playing fewer tables at your current level until your ROI improves, focusing more intently on each table.

2, reapportion your poker time so that you spend less of it playing and more of it working with SnGPT, posting hands, thinking about situations, etc...

3, play short-handed cash games.

[Newt_Buggs]

I'de recommend finding another player in the $33s/$22s to exchange HH with, or hiring a winning player in the $55s to coach you. I'de also recommend at least trying the former before chosing the latter.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Just asking a general question for people who went through this.

[/ QUOTE ]

just want to give you some [censored] for a sec man, as you didn't get to your question mark for another 500 words...

...

[ QUOTE ]
I played about 3000 $10+1s before learning about 2+2. Played another 1,000 $10+1s after learning about 2+2 (there was also a 6 month break in there when I started a new job). Then I played about 800 $20+2s 4-Tabling. Bought a second monitor and moved to 8-Tables and played about another 800 20+2s since then. Had about an 18% ROI 4 tabling the $10+1s. 14% 4 Tabling the 22s, and around 12% 8 tabling the 22s.

[/ QUOTE ]

man, i can't resist really, i just don't know why people always want to give their life stories in posts like this. i'll give you a bit of a break here as it's almost, almost, almost to the point of what you are getting at and specifically my advice.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my real problem is a couple things.

[/ QUOTE ]

sweet, the problem, i knew we'd get there eventually

[ QUOTE ]
After 5,000+ or so low limit SNGs I guess I feel like I should be at the 55s or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

is there some good reason to "feel" that? i mean this in great seriousness. sit back a second and think about what you're saying. you're saying "i feel that simply by playing a large number of these, i should have moved up significantly in stakes. at no point do you even stop to consider things like, oh, i don't know, that to play 50s you'd have to go to the spot where you sign up for 50s, double click a table, click on a seat, and then click on the confirmation button. it's not like these things happen by themselves...

by some quick math here, you played 3000 10+1s at a 18% ROI... that's 33000x.18=$5940 in profit. then you played 800 20+2s at an ROI of 14%, that's another $2464 in profit. then you played 800 22s at an roi of 12%, that's another $2112. so you're sitting at about $10k in profit. it doesn't sound like anyone's tampered with your software or anything like that, so it should in theory be possible for you to play some $33s, or maybe even some $55s. you seem to be quite a bit too concerned about playing lots of games, and probably not too concerned with getting better, but that is reading ahead, and i'm not supposed to do that.

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I'm willing to apply myself but time can be short sometimes ( I Play 12 hours or so a week, about 300 22s a month).

[/ QUOTE ]

12 hours week x 4 weeks = 48 hours, 300 sngs = 6 sngs an hour = 4 tabling, does NOT equal 8 tabling. and again, the whole part wherey ou're playing the 22s is entirely your fault, not anyone elses. i'm not saying you're exactly killing them at your ROI, but up to this point you're entirely concerned with how many you play and such, instead of how you play.

[ QUOTE ]
My biggest problem is I have trouble identifying my leaks.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank god, now if only we'd get to a question mark.

[ QUOTE ]
This could be largely because portions of SNG play are counterintuitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, they could be counterintuitive to you, yes, that could indeed be a problem for you becoming a good sng player.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I miss things about stack size, miss opportunitties to be aggressive, or get too aggressive in a weaker table with 4 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, that's like saying you miss things like boobs on a swimsuit model.

the list of what you're missing is sounding longer than the list of what i can come up with off the top of my head for what you might be doing right...

[ QUOTE ]
Because of this I have trouble figuring out where to ask for help in my games, what hands to post, what questions to ask etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

er, i'm confused. you seem to know sort of exactly what you're missing out on, and exactly what types of hands to ask questions about. now, a real piece of advice: how about instead of working on 8 tabling, you work on 4 tabling or fewer while you learn how to play. i doubt your learning curve is that great what with 8 tables constantly blinking and flashing at you. no [censored] you're going to miss things. you don't know what you're doing, what you're supposed to be thinking about, and you're not giving yourself any time to think about these things! compound that with teh fact that you dont' have many hours to play or think about the game, and we're in hot soup!

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I've gotten over all the early hurdles of poker play. I've molded myself into a disciplined, thinking, patient, selectively aggressive player.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, well, this time i do mean to be mean. look at the thing i quoted a couple quotes up. it does not seem to me at all that you have gotten over the early hurdles of poker play. you do not sound like you're a disciplined, thinking, patient, selectively aggressive player. that doesn't jive at all with not understanding how to play the bubble at all, and frequently missing major and minor details of the table.

[ QUOTE ]
But I'm missing a lot of the finer points, and even after what I consider tons of reading it's becoming very hard to translate those into my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

potato, potaaahto. what you callt he finer points are really sounding to me like the "beat you over the head with my gigantic e-penis" points. i'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that a) your study habits aren't that great and b) you aren't giving yourself a fair shake by your method of play. take it slower, play fewer games, improve.

[ QUOTE ]
So my question is this. I'm sure many players have gone through a long stagnant spell, what did you do to break it, or did you ever break it? What are some suggestions about how to learn a little more about the game? I use SNG PT, about once a week I go through and check all my larger pushes, or all-ins and see if I'm off. Is being a 12% ROIer at the 20s just something you should settle for, is it possible I'm just not strategically intelligent enough to push my play further? This isn't a whine post, I do fairly well usually make $800+ a month, but it's been like that for a year, and I don't feel like I've gotten that much better, I just want something to get myself jump started and feeling like I am getting stronger each month. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

oh thank god the question mark.

a) yes, i've gone through stagnant spells
b) i worked hard. i sat and looked at my hand histories. i looked at other peoples' hand histories. i read the archives. i pounded out computations with electronic tools and by hand. i learned a ton just by looking at pen and paper calculations, more than most would guess. i looked at tables of hands, i looked at empirical research, theoretical research, and hit the tables hard, giving myself hundreds of games of "experimenting" at times with new strategies i wanted to implement in order to see how i felt about them and their results.
c) alternatively, i get drunk and just play cards.
d) things to think about to learn how to think about the game... i suggest you sit down with a printout of just things like the percentile rankings of hands of various types (v random hands, v calling hands, etc.) and just stare at them. i suggest you sit down and think about the bubble, and the average opponent you face on the bubble. i suggest you look at 4 and 5 handed situations in your nifty electronic tool and see how often you could be profitably pushing with any two. i suggest every once in a while spite calling.
e) instead of just checking your pushes, check some of your non pushes.
f) i wouldn't settle for being a 12% at the 22s player. it seems kinda boring. it's possible yo'ure too much of an idiot to get better, but i very much doubt it. it just sounds more like you're trying in the wrong ways to get better, and having some things fundamentally not click for you.
g) for god's sake, you've made a big stinking pile of money, just play 2 or 4 33s or 55s or 109s at a time for a few days and see what you think of it. stop playing 8 tables immediately.

blah.

c

ps: and some people say i never make a content filled post anymore

pps: and some people say i never make someone feel like an [censored] anymore

[applejuicekid]

Even though this wasn't directed at me I feel this was a great post. Thanks!

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though this wasn't directed at me I feel this was a great post. Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

you're just saying that cuz it's long, no?

c