Blarg...

[pokerdirty]

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No reads, first hand. PR 1/2

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Thanks for everyone who tried to help w/o flaming me, especially in some of the later responses. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Shaf

[kiemo]

I used to subscribe to the theory that pocket tens was never to be raised from the blinds at this level with many callers, because the limpers probably have overcards which they arent folding if they pair up.

But then I looked at chance to win. Against 5 players how often is TT going to win? Is it greater then 16% (really more like 18% due to rake)? If so then you make money by getting as many bets in preflop as possible.


As for the flop. I prefer betting this out as I want to give people a chance to fold now. I dont like check raising here becuase if someone bets this they probably have a Jack and now you are check raising with a hand thats WB, even if it does clean up some other players. And your out of position so you have to follow up with a turn bet and hope he folds (which he wont probably) or your hoping it gets checked through.

[TripleH68]

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Meh. This whole thread sucks. It started out with a fairly boring hand history (how many "I have a PP and an overcard fell" posts do we see every week) and somebody asking to be told how to play his cards without putting any apparent thought into it himself (and, yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP lost to J6s or some other crap). It took a detour through Weak-Tight World (The Happiest Place On Earth Unless You Don't Want It To Be And Then We'll Gladly Fold It Up!), and now the OP is quoting himself back to me in response to my attempts at Socratic teaching.

Maybe I'm just tired...

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This is one of the best rants I have read in some time.

If it means anything to you it actually brightened my day.

[adsman]

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Meh. This whole thread sucks. It started out with a fairly boring hand history (how many "I have a PP and an overcard fell" posts do we see every week) and somebody asking to be told how to play his cards without putting any apparent thought into it himself (and, yeah, it's pretty obvious the OP lost to J6s or some other crap). It took a detour through Weak-Tight World (The Happiest Place On Earth Unless You Don't Want It To Be And Then We'll Gladly Fold It Up!), and now the OP is quoting himself back to me in response to my attempts at Socratic teaching.

Maybe I'm just tired...

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This is one of the best rants I have read in some time.

If it means anything to you it actually brightened my day.

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I laughed out loud for only the second time on these boards.

[Koss]

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Seriously, what is the math that someone has a jack here? From a strictly mathematical point can anyone answer this?

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tell me exact hand ranges for everyone involved, and yes. otherwise, no.

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I was thinking any 2, kind of a worst case scenario.

[Homer315]

I think you have to raise PF because of what an earlier poster said. You are going to win more than 16% of the time here with the pocket tens. You're making money if everyone calls this bet PF.

As for the flop, I like checking this line, and here's why. If an early position player bets, it entirely possible that you get a bunch of calls, making it as high as 16 or 17 SB in the pot when it comes back to you. Given your back door straight AND flush draws, not to mention the other two tens, I think you are getting the right odds to peel one off. (call it 3.5 outs or so, because I'm discounting further the flush draw, since you only have the ten, and you're getting between 15 and 17 to 1).

If a very late position player bets, he may be betting overcards, and a check raise may be in order to drive some folks with overcards out, as well as possibly a weak jack. I don't see much benefit in betting out the flop, because damn near every draw has the right odds to call.

When the turn card comes, you're going to have a much clearer idea of where your hand stands. A heart, 8, or Q gives you a pretty decent draw. Any other overcards are going to significantly weaken your hand, unless your check raise (if you executed one) drastically reduced the number of opponents. An undercard increases your equity pretty strongly I think.

My primary reason for not betting the flop is that few people will fold, and, moreover, someone in late position with a flush draw or straight draw may raise for value making it two back to you. You don't really want to pay 2SB to see the turn here.

[Gunther S.]

Before the flop, this pot is HUGE! You made it that way, and were right to do so for a couple of reasons that were already discussed.

On the flop, this pot is HUGE! and the board is scary. Two things are true at this point: (1) there is no way to protect your hand here, and (2) you cannot fold. Did I mention that the pot is huge?

Check.

If it is bet, raised, 3-bet, capped behind you then you won't have odds to cold call. Leave it to the draws and the odd jacks.

If it is bet on your left and called around, call like a fish and bet out the turn. With luck, the original better will raise.

If it's bet in late position ... that's tough because the MP flush draw is going to trap raise this hand. I still think you should call, but that may be fishy. Check raise the turn.

This flop sucks. You have a sketchy hand with outs, most of which are probably redraws for your 5 opponents. But that pot is big. You have to figure out the way that maximizes your chance of winning it. Giving up is losers poker.

Flame on.

[Homer315]

The chances of the other 5 hands NOT having a jack is 47.9%, i.e. 52% of the time, one of those five hands will have a Jack.....

Just random hands that is...

[Koss]

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If it is bet on your left and called around, call like a fish and bet out the turn. With luck, the original better will raise.


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What hands would raise our turn donk that don't have us thouroughly destroyed?

[Gunther S.]

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If it is bet on your left and called around, call like a fish and bet out the turn. With luck, the original better will raise.


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What hands would raise our turn donk that don't have us thouroughly destroyed?

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Ambiguously derogatory. Good question, and I'm fishing here in more ways than one... Then it seems that this line requires a "good" turn card. There aren't any really good cards, but one of the two tens is decent. Also, any of the 8s is great, any of the 7s is good, a non-diamond queen is my least favorite.

Again, our chances of winning this hand are slim. What difference does it make that we are crushed or not? The pot is still large, and that is the most important aspect of this hand. Winning it a small number of times can still be profitable. This is a position that comes up again and again. If we play assuming we are crushed our game is screwed. If the pot was 6 SBs, I'd lean more towards folding. Here, unless the action gets ugly no way!