QQ in Big Blind

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The raise looks too big for me to be AA or KK

[/ QUOTE ]
The raise is a perfectly standard pot-sized raise. And it reveals absolutely nothing about this player's holding. He has something as he doesn't steal with trash hands.

People seem to be advocating a push !
Why would you overbet the pot and push in 5200 to win 1000 ?
This hand was discussed at length later, and the only options considered were to either call or raise a pot-sized amount.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because reraising pot commits you where your only remaining bet after the flop is all-in. You're most likely ahead here. When you're in that position and likely to be a favorite you're best to just push it in and put villain to the tough choice. QQ isn't a hand I like to play too slowly before the flop since flopped overcards can make you put the breaks on, incorrectly in many cases and you're allowing AK to escape with chips on a flop that misses him.

[ QUOTE ]
Because reraising pot commits you

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think reraising pot-commits you.
Suppose you make it 2000. You then have 3350 left which is still about half the average stack. If your opponent chooses to reraise all-in (which would be a courageous raise without AA, KK or AK), then you have a decision to make. But you can still get away from the hand if you wish.
Whether you raise to 2000 or push, your opponent will probably fold all hands less than QQ. So you win the same amount of chips either way.

If you push, then you are just hoping that your opponent does not have AA or KK. You have left yourself no escape route.

You mention that your only remaining bet after the flop is all-in. That is certainly the case IF your 2000 bet is called, AND you choose to bet. But maybe your opponent will fold to your raise pre-flop, or maybe he will reraise all-in. Needless to say, I think a push in this position is a poor play.

I should have mentioned that this was a live tournament, so the play is not as wild as it would be playing on the net.

By the way, the big discussion afterwards was about the BB’s pre-flop play. He just called the CO’s raise. Some people said it was ok to do that. I said he should have raised 2000 or so.

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think reraising pot-commits you.
Suppose you make it 2000. You then have 3350 left which is still about half the average stack. If your opponent chooses to reraise all-in (which would be a courageous raise without AA, KK or AK), then you have a decision to make. But you can still get away from the hand if you wish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to give villain the opportunity to put you to a tough decision like this? You have a premium hand that's only dominated by 2 other hands and a favorite against every other holding. If he does push preflop you're now being given great odds to call and the only hands you could justify a fold against are exactly AA and KK. Unless you are fairly certain he has one of those hands I think you're making the wrong move by just re-raising here.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether you raise to 2000 or push, your opponent will probably fold all hands less than QQ. So you win the same amount of chips either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise to 2000 only makes it 1350 more for him to call into a pot of 2875. With 2:1 odds he has proper odds to call with a lot of holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
If you push, then you are just hoping that your opponent does not have AA or KK. You have left yourself no escape route.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you've left him an escape route where you could have gotten him to commit nearly his whole stack and lose it to you.

[ QUOTE ]
You mention that your only remaining bet after the flop is all-in. That is certainly the case IF your 2000 bet is called, AND you choose to bet. But maybe your opponent will fold to your raise pre-flop, or maybe he will reraise all-in. Needless to say, I think a push in this position is a poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already said he has 2:1 odds to call, so it's not all that likely he's going to fold here for a measly 1350.

[ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned that this was a live tournament, so the play is not as wild as it would be playing on the net.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play plenty of live MTTs and there are tons of donkeys and retirees in them. I don't find a huge difference. If anything, people push harder in live games because you don't have as many hands dealt in the same timeframe and smaller live MTT structures usually push action with fast rising blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, the big discussion afterwards was about the BB’s pre-flop play. He just called the CO’s raise. Some people said it was ok to do that. I said he should have raised 2000 or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah you could alternate between calling and re-raising here. I don't like to play Queens too slowly before the flop but some players would opt for this line and hope for a low ragged flop and let the villain lead out the flop, then apply the pressure.

Since you're in the blinds and you know you'll be first to act after the flop, another option here is a stop-n-go where you just smooth call and expect to jam any flop. This play has a much higher variance to it, but will win you the pot in a lot of cases.

I still like my default play of pushing over all other choices. A good player should definitely vary their play somewhat between all of these options so he isn't too predictable.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy reply.
I don’t agree with raising all-in pre-flop, I think overbetting the bet by so much is nearly always a mistake, as you won’t get called unless you are behind.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to give villain the opportunity to put you to a tough decision like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are very much missing my point here.
If the villain has AA or KK and he reraises, then you can get away from the hand. Maybe you won’t but you DO have the choice. And you’re right, it is a difficult decision. But if he has AA or KK, and you push pre-flop, then you have no decision at all. If he has AA or KK it’s better to have a difficult decision than having no decision at all.


[ QUOTE ]
A raise to 2000 only makes it 1350 more for him to call into a pot of 2875. With 2:1 odds he has proper odds to call with a lot of holdings

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. The odds are 2:1. But look at the sequence of plays. The CO (who is a good player, and the BB knows this) has raised in position, the BB has reraised. If you were sitting in the CO seat, you would think that you were up against a very strong hand here. You would also expect the BB to more than likely bet the flop. So are you willing to call another 30% on your stack in the knowledge that he will probably bet all-in on the flop.
The pot odds is not the only issue here.
The CO actually had AJ which was in his range of raising hands.
What would you do with that hand if the BB raised to 2000 ?
You said that the raise was a measly 1350 ?
It’s 30% of your remaining stack.

By the way, the flop came JJ7.
Check - check.
Turn 6.
BB bet 1000, CO raised 2000 more.
BB raised all-in. CO called.
River was a K.

the reason for an allin is to put the tough decision on the other player. I would much rather have no decision (an allin) than a tough decision, we can only make each decision given the information at hand and every bit of poker is about presenting misleading information or misrepresenting your holdings, put the tough decision on your opponent and realize you are ahead more times than not. You are more likely to get him off of his hand if he has middle pair, Ax or even a stone cold bluff. I agree that only premium hands call you such as AA,KK,AK,QQ,JJ and maybe if your lucky worse hands than that. We want AK to call. JJ, of course. Only hands we are WB is AA, KK. Any flop is threatening (8d,7d,4h) when your opponent then pushes allin after the flop. What are you going to do then. Did he hit a set, a straight, is he on a flush draw? More times than not we are ahead with this hand. Push and take whats in the pot now. When he folds, you now have sent a message to the rest of the table. Don't mess with me fellas. When he calls and you whoop his butt, your sending another message that your not scared to gamble it up with significant holdings. when he calls and you get your butt whipped (again fewer times than you think), then you get to go home and watch Letterman and don't really care what they think your table image is, because your home.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
We want AK to call

[/ QUOTE ]

no we don't.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We want AK to call

[/ QUOTE ]

no we don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

we definitely like the possibility of being on the 55% of this situation. AK is a dog to any pocket pair. Yes, it is a coin flip, but a slightly favorable coin flip. We can not expect to advance in tournaments if we avoid every coin flip situation. YOU WILL HAVE TO WIN MANY situations similar to this in order to advance. When do you suggest risking with coin flip situations? Only when you are short stack? Not good poker. I am thrilled if he turns over AK and if he hits the flop, then I tell him nice hand, nice call and good luck.

Your example is the exact reason why I prefer to push preflop, especially when the alternative is the line that your friend chose. By the turn card the CO was priced in to call. There wasn't much left to consider.

I like the ideas that you present and some of them are valid arguments. I think one of the most important points in my post is the very last part where I state it's important to vary your play in this position somewhat. I can't fault a call but, like I said prior, I'm pushing this more often than just smooth calling. I might smooth call in some cases to vary my play or for deception purposes (like if I planned to pull a stop n go).

The cards in CO's hands combined with the flop aren't the point to analyze here. At the time you have a preflop decision we don't know what the flop is and it can come out literally thousands of different ways. When it comes to preflop decisions I'm dancing if I get allin with KK vs. AJ. The flop that came out here is so rare that I'm winning this most of the time as I go to the flop more than a 2:1 favorite. Not only that, but a good tight player should be laying down AJ facing a reraise allin. This almost screams QQ-AA or AK. CO would have made a huge mistake by calling. Luck wouldn't have gone my way in this case if he did call, but my default play and line here would be a winner 70% of the time. Your thinking in this case is too results oriented.

[ QUOTE ]
Your example is the exact reason why I prefer to push preflop, especially when the alternative is the line that your friend chose.

[/ QUOTE ]
IMO making a pot-sized raise (i.e. to 2000) is best, pushing in the next choice but I don’t like it, calling is the worst option. It’s not a choice of Push v call.


[ QUOTE ]
By the turn card the CO was priced in to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
?? – The CO was ahead after the flop. This is not the point of the discussion anyway. It's the pre-flop play I wanted to analyse.


[ QUOTE ]
I can't fault a call but, like I said prior, I'm pushing this more often than just smooth calling. I might smooth call in some cases to vary my play or for deception purposes (like if I planned to pull a stop n go).”

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I think calling is the worst option. 40% of the time an A or K will flop. What do you do then ?
And the time you have an overpair on the flop you will be doing well go get any more chips from villain.


[ QUOTE ]
The cards in CO's hands combined with the flop aren't the point to analyze here

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you saying this ?
That was never my stance – I discussed the opponent’s possible range of hands.
I have already analysed the AA or KK scenario. AQ, AJ, JJ, TT, 99 all fall into the same category if the CO faces a reraise pre-flop. I discussed AJ because that is what he actually had, but I would have said the same thing about AQ,99, etc. I don’t know what the CO would have done if he had AK – he may have pushed, called or folded – I don’t know.
I had not intended to post any more after my previous post. So I just told you the way the hand developed in case you were curious.


[ QUOTE ]
Your thinking in this case is too results oriented

[/ QUOTE ]
A silly comment, and completely untrue.