TPNK with a crowd...do i lead?

[Aaron W.]

The preflop raise is bad. You need some really awful players to make this play OOP. You minor edge that exists preflop is diminished and almost negated by your positional disadvantage.

If you limped, you would want to check-and-see. The value of your hand drops because you don't even have a backdoor flush. I have no problem check-folding if it comes back for two bets.

I have a hard time believing that raising preflop from the SB here can ever be profitable.

[WalkAmongUs]

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I have a hard time believing that raising preflop from the SB here can ever be profitable.

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The only reason I ever considered raising was because the four limpers' VPIP were: 38%, 69%, 81% and 65%. All were passive. How much worse could I hope for?

[Goodnews]

Whats with the raise? The preflop raise allows your opponents to draw correctly post-flop, which leads you to your predicament on the river.

Call preflop.

On the flop, I want to eliminate the field now, with 5 players to act I check raise. And lead the rest of the way until I am met with resistance.

[sean c]

I am not getting why everyone likes a flop check and see here? Don't we have TP? Do we expect one of the passives to bet or bet and raise for that matter? I still think leading is correct especially if we had just limped.

[Goodnews]

wouldnt you expect a stronger ace to bet here? I would bet even if i was a passsive donk. Besides assuming the preflop raise was made, this 12sb pot is big enough for me to want to thin the field, and jsut as importantly, want to know if it is worth putting more money in to win this pot.

If you bet, get raised, and reraised, then what? its a 9:1 call, more if you count implied odds. Tough spot, if you check, it gets bet, raised its an easy 6.5:1 fold.

This may seem tight/weakish but I don't like putting in money where I might have a small edge at best and at a huge disadvantage at worst (I think thats how you win at poker).

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I have a hard time believing that raising preflop from the SB here can ever be profitable.

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The only reason I ever considered raising was because the four limpers' VPIP were: 38%, 69%, 81% and 65%. All were passive. How much worse could I hope for?

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The only time a raise in this position could be profitable is when it is an all-in raise. In this case it was not. You may enjoy the slightest of advantages preflop but the fact that you only get to see three cards on the flop will force you to (correctly) fold some long shot winners. The threat of domination and reverse domination also weighs heavily here as well, so much so that, even an expert will make unprofitable mistakes due to the razor thin margins of error.

[sean c]

Sorry to hi jack the front page with this one again but i wanted to give my 2cents on the flop play. First off everyone who has replied to this thread agrees as do i that completing the bet here is better than raising pre flop. Most who have replied here also think checking the flop is correct this part i disagree with.

If ahead:
1) we are giving up to much value by checking the flop in an unraised multi way pot with top pair.
2) we do not want to give a free card to any weak draws such as gut shots, bdfd or any worse hands that could make two pair.
3) checking the flop and folding for two bets when it gets back you will be folding the best hand a small % of the time.
4) against loose passive players in an unraised multi way pot you should never count on someone in late position to bet your hand for you.
5) checking the flop by no means makes this hand any easier to play the fact is we have a decent but not great hand that we need to play completely out of position and this is never an easy thing.
6) sure there are times that i will bet this hand on every street and get called down or raised by a better ace two pair and feel like a moron but far more times i will bet this hand on evey street and get paid off by a worse or drawing hand.

I guees in short i think it is almost never correct to check a top pair hand on the flop out of position in an unraised multi way pot with a bunch of loose passive players. Just my 2 cents anyone feel free to add or dispute.

[WalkAmongUs]

I agree with betting the flop because all of my opponents are very passive. Odds are its just going to get checked through. You should have seen the motley collection of hands that were shown down on the river. It actually made choke on my own spittle.