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#71
11-01-2005, 04:14 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] CO has been in every pot. [/ QUOTE ] and you're trying to make him fold a pair? river is atrocious [/ QUOTE ] come on man. 
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#72
11-01-2005, 04:16 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] CO has been in every pot. [/ QUOTE ] and you're trying to make him fold a pair? river is atrocious [/ QUOTE ] come on man. [/ QUOTE ] that was my first judgment based on him wanting to make the CO fold. I guess he wanted to make the button fold. I still don't like it at first glance but obviously if the thread is this long I should read it first
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#73
11-01-2005, 04:21 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] CO has been in every pot. [/ QUOTE ] and you're trying to make him fold a pair? river is atrocious [/ QUOTE ] come on man. [/ QUOTE ] that was my first judgment based on him wanting to make the CO fold. I guess he wanted to make the button fold. I still don't like it at first glance but obviously if the thread is this long I should read it first [/ QUOTE ]yes, he is clearly trying to stop CO from overcalling w/ a hand likre 67... if he plays every pot, hes prob not the best hand reader... facing him w/ 2 is correct, IMO. baron played the river perfectly, i believe... saying its "atrocious" is so unnecessary... just annoying when ppl take this authorative tone... it is not bad... if anything, it is marginally worse than another option.
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#74
11-01-2005, 04:25 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] CO has been in every pot. [/ QUOTE ] and you're trying to make him fold a pair? river is atrocious [/ QUOTE ] come on man. [/ QUOTE ] that was my first judgment based on him wanting to make the CO fold. I guess he wanted to make the button fold. I still don't like it at first glance but obviously if the thread is this long I should read it first [/ QUOTE ] stop changing your name, it's confusing [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#75
11-01-2005, 04:26 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] CO has been in every pot. [/ QUOTE ] and you're trying to make him fold a pair? river is atrocious [/ QUOTE ] come on man. [/ QUOTE ] still hate it. CO has been in every pot. I don't know how many hands that is but it's safe to say he's loose. he's not folding a pair. if he's a LAG he doesn't have a pair and if he's loose passive he'll call 2 with a pair, and baron loses an extra bet. button checked the turn. he probably has nothing. sometimes he has something but baron's play is so contrived (double checkraise attempt? come on) that he'll probably call with any pair anyway, like always, unless he's a 2p2er who will fold middle set because he knows baron has top set. occasionally he checked through with a set and baron takes it in the ass from him for $180. the pot aint that big, he'll occasionally get called by a worse A high but better hands fold very rarely. that's all that matters. the times the guy is bluffing don't matter. what matters is few worse hands will fold while better hands usually call. occasionally he gets value 3-bet and he calls, which way more than offsets the times he induces a bluff 3-bet. the pot is 8 bets. he'll be putting in a 9th bet. so he's getting 9-1 on someone folding a better hand, given that someone has a better hand. it's a little worse because he sometimes gets raped for 3 bets it's kinda hard to judge because he's ahead so often
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#76
11-01-2005, 04:28 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] CO has been in every pot. [/ QUOTE ] and you're trying to make him fold a pair? river is atrocious [/ QUOTE ] come on man. [/ QUOTE ] that was my first judgment based on him wanting to make the CO fold. I guess he wanted to make the button fold. I still don't like it at first glance but obviously if the thread is this long I should read it first [/ QUOTE ]yes, he is clearly trying to stop CO from overcalling w/ a hand likre 67... if he plays every pot, hes prob not the best hand reader... facing him w/ 2 is correct, IMO. baron played the river perfectly, i believe... saying its "atrocious" is so unnecessary... just annoying when ppl take this authorative tone... it is not bad... if anything, it is marginally worse than another option. [/ QUOTE ] explain how you got from the word atrocious to me being authoritative please. actually don't. I'm sick of people having problems with other peoples' attitudes and long flame wars. it's stupid preschool [censored]. so I'm sorry that it bothered you also, the CO being loose is more likely to get him to call down (and keep in mind he almost never has a pair here) than it is for him to be a poor hand reader and make a bad fold. how often do you think loose players fold the current best hand ever?
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#77
11-01-2005, 04:32 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
the thing i didnt want to happen was to give CO a chance to clal with a 2 or a 5 or a 6. he seems passive and he seems loose, but two cold is tough for him with a weak hand.
giving him 9:1 is just too good odds, he may just call with a pair of 5s or 2s closing the action. Raising makes it 5:1 and he is no longer closing the action so if he's afraid button 3bets behind him there's even more reason to fold. yeah, i think im ahead of button a TON here, so if I can get CO to fold a better hand even a small percentage of the time, it's +EV essentially i am putting in one extra bet to try to ensure that I win a 9BB pot. so i think I need to fold a better hand from CO 10%? This is probably really fuzzy math and someone correct it please.
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#78
11-01-2005, 04:37 PM
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Re: finally an interesting hand!!!
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So, if you checkraise and the CO is anywhere near competent he will not be folding a 9 or a ten. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. I think that most competent players who only call the flop (a sign that if they have a pair, it's weak) are looking for a reason to fold, and Baronzeus gave them one by making it 2-bets to them. -v
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#79
11-01-2005, 04:45 PM
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Re: AJs UTG
[ QUOTE ]
the thing i didnt want to happen was to give CO a chance to clal with a 2 or a 5 or a 6. he seems passive and he seems loose, but two cold is tough for him with a weak hand. giving him 9:1 is just too good odds, he may just call with a pair of 5s or 2s closing the action. Raising makes it 5:1 and he is no longer closing the action so if he's afraid button 3bets behind him there's even more reason to fold. yeah, i think im ahead of button a TON here, so if I can get CO to fold a better hand even a small percentage of the time, it's +EV essentially i am putting in one extra bet to try to ensure that I win a 9BB pot. so i think I need to fold a better hand from CO 10%? This is probably really fuzzy math and someone correct it please. [/ QUOTE ] these situations are so hard to analyze because such a small portion of their ranges really matter. if it was headsup I think we can both agree that checkraising the button is worse than checkcalling. now the difference is we have the CO. but he: 1. had to have no raised the flop or bet the turn or river with a pair 2. be willing to fold the pair even though we suspect he's loose. we lose a bet when he calls with a worse hand and gain 9 when he folds a winner notice that the frequency of the CO having a pair is REALLY important, since I feel strongly that checkraising the button headsup is worse than checkcalling. so to take an extreme example, if you checkraised the button and the CO has a better hand 1% of the tiem and folds it always, that has such a little effect on the overall picture. then also, there is an EV of trying to make the CO fold. if he calls with a better hand 90% of the time it's breakeven. I suspect it's something like him folding 25% (edit: that's way high actually but doesn't matter). you win 9 once and lose 1 3 times, so your EV is only 1.5 BB. then if he has a better hand 10% of the time, which I think is about reasonable, your EV of bluffing the CO is .15 BB. is the difference between c/c and c/r the button headsup less than .15? I think that's really the best way to analyze the situation because it gives you an idea of how the frequency of CO having a better hand impacts the overall decision if checkraising the button was a breakeven proposition then I'd say go for it but I think you're giving up too much by checkraising him
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#80
11-01-2005, 04:51 PM
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Re: finally an interesting hand!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So, if you checkraise and the CO is anywhere near competent he will not be folding a 9 or a ten. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this. I think that most competent players who only call the flop (a sign that if they have a pair, it's weak) are looking for a reason to fold, and Baronzeus gave them one by making it 2-bets to them. -v [/ QUOTE ] Wait, what? Any compitent player is calling here, putting Button on a draw, and Baron on A-high...I mean if Baron had anything hes betting the river...if I was CO Im not looking to fold there...seriously, Baron checked the turn and the river, then checkraised...if Im holding mid-pair/top pair Im good there quite often. I think u are mixing compitent, with a weak unthinking player. Both are different. EDIT: But yes, if it makes CO fold a pair a percentage of the time its worth it (my only problem is pot size, anyway I just got up, so Im going to read the rest of the responses as my head is a little fuzzy right now). But most loose players will call here, and weak players will fold.
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