Been a while

[bobbyi]

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i know it sounds crazy, but i think we are behind so often that even after checking behind on the turn, calling a river bet is not an automatic decision.

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You're crazy.

I think you are giving too much weight to the preflop action. It is obviously quite likely that the guy has a big hand, but an unknown could easily just be doing something stupid and there is no way you can give him enough credit for a monster to fold here, especially because the type to hold some stupid hand here could also be the type to automatically bet this river after you check back the turn.

[MrBig30]

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OK. That is, the CO LRR'ed, so he's either got you with AA/KK, or he's got complete crap but will keep betting because he's representing AA/KK. Standard sort of WA/WB against an aggressive opponent.

....lots of interesting stuff....

but the gist of it is that "protecting" our hand against a SB who can't be making a very profitable call anyway is unimportant when compared to our interactions with the LRRer.


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Thats about what I thought when realizing that given the flop there are not many hands SB can have that we have to worry about. So possibly an exception to the "raise to protect your equity in big pot"-rule. Now I just have to think this far while multitabling... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Nice post ALL1N.

[sublime]

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I don't agree with a lot of this. I don't see why I want him to call with any hand with 3 or more outs getting an immediate 12 to 1.

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OK. You're in a situation where, if HU, you calling down would be rewarded nicely. That is, the CO LRR'ed, so he's either got you with AA/KK, or he's got complete crap but will keep betting because he's representing AA/KK. Standard sort of WA/WB against an aggressive opponent.

The player behind would be a worry if by letting him in he could hurt your equity, but it doesn't seem that way at all. If he has a 3 or 2, it's extremely unlikely to be with any card but an ace. Meaning that he's drawing to 3 outs at most (with a K or Q). Why is there a problem with offering him 12:1 when he's got a 3-outer? A 3 outer requires 14:1. Sure, with implied odds it could be close, perhaps even a profitable call. But we're not winning this pot the whole time anyway, so the implied odds are subtracted from the LRRer as well as us. Anyway, my point is, by calling, we are hardly hurting our equity. If we are, it's by a fraction of a bet.

The more important issue is the LRRer. Say we avoid losing the fraction of a bet by raising, and then the LRRer 3-bets and of course, we call down. That's an extra bet we've paid (fair enough, we don't pay a whole bet because we've got outs and we're ahead sometimes), compared to the fraction of a bet saved. And thats only if SB has a 3 outer!! What about if he has 55? If we let him in and just keep calling down, he could end up adding 2.5BB going to showdown. Or better still CR'ing the flop!! That's massive compared to the fractions of a bet dealt with in pushing him out.

I may not have made myself clear because I've just finished a mammoth headsup session, but the gist of it is that "protecting" our hand against a SB who can't be making a very profitable call anyway is unimportant when compared to our interactions with the LRRer.

Also, I forgot that SB could have A5/A4 for a 4 outer, but please forgive that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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nice

[Danenania]

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Maybe consider a flop call.

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I really like this plan.

To Cartman: it's true that you will be letting SB sneak in with a few hands that have odds, but it's not that big of a deal. If it were HU with CO I think the best play would unarguably be to call down and bet if checked to. Well, sometimes in a hand you can only do so much. Here I think the benefits of just calling outweigh the slight risk of letting SB hang around. Also, you allow him to call with many hands that _don't_ have odds like PP's and backdoor draws as well as keeping him around for the turn where he is likely to make a truly horrible overcall (and perhaps even another one on the river).

[PokerNoob]

I want to get to showdown with the LRR and get a read on him. I like the flop checkraise because I want SB out of there with his ace and a gutshot or whatever. I don't want SB donking the turn and then being faced with two from CO, so I want him out now. When the turn K comes, a thinking CO may realize that it's unlikely I have a K and either try to get me to fold when I'm ahead by checkraising, or win an extra bet when he's AA/KK/AK, so I like the turn check particularly if you must fold to the c/r. On the river rag, I would call a bet and bet/call if checkraised. I get to showdown relatively cheaply, and often induce a bluff or mistaken value bet from something like TT/99 on the end, with the added bonus of seeing what he LRRed.

[surfdoc]

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ok i checked, he bet the river (a blank if i recall) and i called. he tabled TT.

i checked because of all the reasons listed by others (well, actually like many things go thru my head, ahead/behind, will he bluff, will be semi bluff river, will he fold some gay PP but bet river with it). i just wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do, i just acted on intuition.

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Not to be results oriented...but hey it is a strength so I need to stick to it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] This is one of the reasons a check is good on the turn. Will this player ever find a fold on the turn? I think that 2 overs on the board vs a guy who raised preflop and raised the flop may be enough to get him to fold. He will pay off the river nearly always with either a bet or a call so you will get that bet if you are ahead.

There is one more thing that I didn't see anyone mention in the thread relating to this WA/WB situation. That is the fact that these guys love to limp reraise with hands like 78s, and 89s that are drawing completely dead on the turn. They will always call a river bet here if they catch a pair thinking you have AQ or bluff at the river a non trivial percentage of the time with air after you check.

Lastly, I just want to recognize that ALL1N owned this thread.