The spread of Christianity

[Mempho]

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Imagine what happened last December in Asia occurring 2000 years ago.

People are going about their daily lives. Men leave to fish, woman are tending to their babies. It is a perfectly pleasant day without a cloud in the sky. ALL OF A SUDDEN...

The sea rises out of nowhere and swallows entire villages! In an instant, tens of thousands of people are dead and wiped off the face of the earth. This is a pretty powerful event.

Of course, today we know this to be a tsunami. But what would the people of 2000 years have thought?

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I think this is an excellent point. It is possible, of course, that God or Satan created the tsunami through the use of tectonic plate shifts. I tend to personally not go into the natural disaster being actual acts of God. The reason I'm uncomfortable with this is that I disagree with "certain" religious leaders claiming that something happened because of God's judgment. That is God's call. If he wants to come down and announce a judgment, he can do it anytime. I saw a site on the net claiming that Katrina was sent by God to judge New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf Coast...New Orleans for voodoo, occult activities, and debauchery....the Mississippi Gulf Coast for gambling. I mean, I could use that rationale to justify destroying every city in America:

No more LA/Hollywood
Milwaukee has too many breweries
Chicago is gluttunous
New York because of the Yankees [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Miami just because of South Beach (no, it's still there)
San Francisco because of homosexuality
Dallas and Houston because of oil company greed
Washington because of corruption
And, of course there can't be a Las Vegas

[DougShrapnel]

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<font color="red"> The atheist, understandably, simply says since we don’t know, I’ll wait for more information. </font>

You are describing an agnositc here. Atheists actually have more in common with theists in that they both have come to form a belief about God. The only difference is that the atheist believes there is no God, while the theists believe there is.

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permission to scream?

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AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! (yes)

[/ QUOTE ]3rded Motion to scream carried.

Personaly, I think that the word atheist has been forever ruined. It is unrepairable.

Since it was defined in a dictionary like Webster's New Twentieth Century (Unabridged) as, "The belief that there is no God." Worse yet, this brief line is then followed by a quote from Francis Bacon: "A little philosophy inclineth men's minds to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's mind to religion." And it gets worse. The same dictionary describes the Atheist as "one who believes that there is not God," and then quotes Young, saying "By night an atheist half believes a God."

Atheism is NOT a "belief." Atheism is derived from the Greek, atheos, and means simply "away from the belief in a god or gods." Atheists do not "believe," and it is incorrect to assume that the belief in a supernatural entity or entities is, somehow, equivalent to the "non-belief" in those same beings. It isn't.

[RJT]

Mempho,

Are you asking this same question: What happens to the “Tommys” of the world: Those who “… never heard of Jesus Christ or what praying is, how can they be saved?”

If that is what you are asking, I don’t know the answer. I am not even positive how my, the Catholic Church, presently deals with this issue. I do know Catholics disagree with the Justification by Faith alone issue that some Protestants hold as their belief. We give more latitude then they do. I hope it is the case with God that he grants the "Tommys" of the world a free pass.

Regarding the Mid-East. I really don’t know much about what is going on there relative to any (potential) Christians. But, it seems you are asking two questions here. One relative to Muslims who choose to not become Christians based on what they believe and the other question is they choose not to based on fear of their government.

If you are saying something else, please clarify for me.

RJT

[RJT]

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The Church was founded in the same lifetime as those who experienced the resurrection. If it didn't happen and was all a myth, it would not have caught on so quickly. The fact that it was made up would have been obvious.


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The Gospels were written AFTER Paul founded the Church, and probably after anyone alive during Jesus' time was dead. The mythos (the stories) were already there from previous myths. A "god-man" was not a novel idea.

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Peter (not Paul) was the "Rock" on who Christ built His Church. Peter was an original Apostle. What are you saying?

You are correct that the Gospels were most probably written after Jesus and the original witnesses died.

You are also correct that a god/man is not novel to Jesus.

[Lestat]

Well, I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but can you please explain to me what an agnostic is? It seems you are describing and atheist the way I would describe an agnostic.

[Mempho]

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Mempho,

Are you asking this same question? What happens to the “Tommys” of the world: Those who “… never heard of Jesus Christ or what praying is, how can they be saved?”

If that is what you are asking, I don’t know the answer. I am not even positive how my, the Catholic Church, presently deals with this issue. I do know Catholics disagree with the Justification by Faith alone issue that some Protestants hold as their belief. We give more latitude then they do. I hope it is the case with God that he grants the "Tommys" of the world a free pass.

Regarding the Mid-East. I really don’t know much about what is going on there relative to any (potential) Christians. But, it seems you are asking two questions here. One relative to Muslims who choose to not become Christians based on what they believe and the other question is they choose not to based on fear of their government.

If you are saying something else, please clarify for me.

RJT

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Sorry about the misunderstanding.

The first part of the question was, "Do you think its possible that there are a lot more Christians than we know about in closed countries like those in the Middle East?

The second part is only applicable if the answer to the first question is no. That is, "Do you think that people in closed areas of the world have access to the information needed to make a decision about Christ?" If not, then their free will becomes a moot point because they don't even know that they have a choice.


I, like you, hope that there is a way that this is resolved even if it remains beyond my knowledge.

[Lestat]

But does it seem plausible to you that these events of long ago, is where the concept of religions and Gods started. Of course, you'd have to put aside your belief for a second and ask; What other logical conclusion did these people have?

[RJT]

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Well, I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but can you please explain to me what an agnostic is? It seems you are describing and atheist the way I would describe an agnostic.

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Stat,

Yeah, you (as I was) are basically using the term atheist wrong. It stems as Doug points out from the dictionary. Whodda figured?

RJT

[Lestat]

Again, I'll give this thread back in a sec. This is what Dictionary.com says. It is as I thought. An atheist denies the existence of God. Period. An agnostic is skeptical, but does not profess true atheism. In other words, he has more of an open mind. I still say this is a significant difference.



2 entries found for atheist.
a·the·ist Audio pronunciation of "atheist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st)

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

ag·nos·tic Audio pronunciation of "agnostic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

1.
1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

[RJT]

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But does it seem plausible to you that these events of long ago, is where the concept of religions and Gods started. Of course, you'd have to put aside your belief for a second and ask; What other logical conclusion did these people have?

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I agree that the more one knows about the history of myths and religions it does indeed present stumbling blocks to any particular Religion. As Kip points out even the Jesus as God/man idea is not original. What is original is why Jesus as God/man. Nor was Jesus the first to use the line “do unto others”. Jesus adds love God to the Golden Rule.

I can only tell you about my discernment. A quick summary: read some philosophy, mythology, myths and the like. Not answered for me there. Came back to study my religion - read a lot of things from theology to believers’ memoirs and the like. But, I have always been of the notion of a Prime Mover - God (might a been a brief time when I was atheist, don’t even remember if I was or just busy with my life at the time). Like I said before, I really don’t think Religion gets very far without this starting point - the existence of a God.

We can argue ‘til the cows come home about religion. But, regarding God - either you start with Him or you say “nope”. No genius on the face of the earth can convince me that they know better than I regarding whether God exists or not. (I am not saying I am right, just that they have no better argument against God than I do for Him.)

I think that has to be the first decision for one who is looking for whatever. Atheists, I think either don't find the need for such a search at all or have searched and either said no God or I don't know.