Extracting the most

[PSW]

[ QUOTE ]
I had the same reasoning that you did about preflop.

Then I talked to bicyclekick and told him how stupid he was when folding. Even when I had hands like A5s.

Then he showed me why it was bad. Because you don't make the money up and you need to hit great monsters which you are likely not to get much money on, espeically 95s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to read more about this. Do you still have his comments anywhere?

Thanks

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bit too harsh on the pre-flop stuff, in my opinion. Completing in a 1/2 structure with any two suited in a four way pot is fine. I probably fold when it's raised behind me, but I'm calling if the pot were five-handed, and so I don't think calling in a four way pot can be that terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we just said the same thing but you said it nicer.

[RED_RAIN]

No, this was in person, and then it clicked.

[bicyclekick]

I don't think you talked to me cause I woulda played it the same way as the op (calling and then calling the raise). Maybe the rake at 2/4 hurts more, but at least at the higher limits I'm in. I don't know why you said I say to fold. If there was one less player you could make an arguement for folding and would have a better chance of being right. I'm not sure if it's +ev with 3 people seeing the flop, but with 4 I'm sure it is if you play well postflop.

The conversation I remember was me saying sometimes with just 2 others I'll call with almost any 2 suited...and with 3 others I'm in no matter what. You musta just got confused.

I still don't like th call preflop for one reason...

And this is not meant to be an insult, so I will apologize in advance.

It doesn't sound like your the type of tight player that would fold the hand on the flop unless you hit a monster. There is nothing wrong playing "super" speculative hands if you are always playing for two pair or better (maybe two draws).

but be honest with us... if you flop middle pair, how many bets are you going to waste before you realize you're beat.

Just a thought... sorry to be so harsh.

[bicyclekick]

Oh, and the whole wait til the turn to trap players for a big bet is often a very flawed strategy and the players who often think like that are very easy to play against and will get destroyed higher in limits.

Check raising the flop is probably best. Check-raising the turn is OK, but the flop is the place to hit it.

[RED_RAIN]

I stand corrected.

[PSW]

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't like th call preflop for one reason...

And this is not meant to be an insult, so I will apologize in advance.

It doesn't sound like your the type of tight player that would fold the hand on the flop unless you hit a monster. There is nothing wrong playing "super" speculative hands if you are always playing for two pair or better (maybe two draws).

but be honest with us... if you flop middle pair, how many bets are you going to waste before you realize you're beat.

Just a thought... sorry to be so harsh.

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No worries.... but I did say above that I needed to hit a FD or two pair to be interested. However, if I did hit middle pair, wouldn't I have odds to see the turn assuming it wasn't bet and raised to me, and depending on where the bet came from?

psw

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
No worries.... but I did say above that I needed to hit a FD or two pair to be interested. However, if I did hit middle pair, wouldn't I have odds to see the turn assuming it wasn't bet and raised to me, and depending on where the bet came from?

psw

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but this is not in itself a reason to call preflop. For example, if you completed preflop with 95o and it was raised by the BB and you called 5 way and flopped a 9, you simply must call 1 bet from the BB on the flop, because the pot is now huge. But salvaging EV post flop does not make your preflop action correct.