easy fold? If so when...

Scooterdoo · #1 10-13-2003, 01:40 PM

party 50 nl sng

Blinds are still 15/30

7 players left. I have T1370 in 3rd place and am UTG+1 and dealt AJo. UTG is chip leader with 2490, UTG+2 has T695 and 2nd to last in chips.

UTG limps, I limp, UTG+1 raises 100. UTG and I call 70.

Flop Js 4s 4d

UTG checks, I check (thought of betting but was thinking that UTG+2 may go all-in because of stack size and I would call it)

UTG+2 bets 200, UTG raises 595, I call, UTG+2 calls all-in.

- Bad call by me?

Turn 5d

UTG bets 675 (my remaining stack), I call all-in

- Another bad call?

On both calls I was assuming that UTG+2 would not have made the 100 raise with a 4 in his hand and that UTG would not have called the 70 with a 4 even though he had the chip lead. That put them each on a flush draw, a pocket pair under mine (likely, but could have been slow playing with higher!), or I was really hoping for QJ or KJ.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #2 10-13-2003, 02:13 PM

Early in most any kind of NL tournament I fold AJo more than 1 off the button almost 100% of the time preflop.

Scooterdoo · #3 10-13-2003, 04:51 PM

Of course it depends on the flop, right? So in this case you have the top pair with the top overcard. That's the issue. The problem of course is the set threat with the 44 and a potential higher pair your opponents are holding. So would you have folded given the J44 flop and the betting that transpired?

Copernicus · #4 10-13-2003, 04:56 PM

If you dont play AJo pre-flop, you never have to get to that decision, thats the reason you fold potentially troublesome hands.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #5 10-13-2003, 05:13 PM

Of course it depends on the flop, right?

No. By the time the flop comes, I'm just a spectator.

Frying Bob · #6 10-13-2003, 05:32 PM

I find that when a small stack bets a flop for a big percent of his chips, he usually has the goods (usually). Conversely, I find when they bet all their chips they're more likely to be hoping for a fold (once again, usually). I'd probably put him on something like a big/mid pair or A4. As for UTG... I couldn't put him on a big pair because he should have reraised preflop if he was trying to trap with aces or kings. So maybe he had an underpair like 44. QJ and KJ would also make alot of sense in this spot for UTG. There aren't that many hands people would limp with UTG then call a raise with. I find when people do that they usually have hands that are 2 face cards like KQ, JQ, etc...

I'd most likely put UTG on something like those 2 face cards and try to win a big sidepot from him.

Frying Bob · #7 10-13-2003, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you dont play AJo pre-flop, you never have to get to that decision, thats the reason you fold potentially troublesome hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you never play AJo then you're way too tight. I've won many a pot where I called with AJo in EP or MP and somebody in LP calls with an Ax. The ace flops and I win a big pot. The only trouble with AJ is if you're up against AK or AQ.. You just have to regocnize when you are and play the hand carefully. I feel that doesn't happen nearly enough to make AJ foldable in EP almost 100% of the time.

Copernicus · #8 10-13-2003, 05:53 PM

In ring games I agree, in SnG tournaments that are winnable by extremely tight play I totally disagree. AJo is hand that will get you into trouble more often than its worth.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #9 10-13-2003, 06:52 PM

Remember I said in the early stages. SNG or multi-table, I'm playing the first 3 levels or so super-tight up front. I'll get enough opportunities on the button & one off as well as in the blinds to make a concealed hand early. IN fact, I'm not likely to play AQo in EP early in a NL tourney.

Once the blinds get reasonably large, my approach changes.

Legato · #10 10-14-2003, 04:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you dont play AJo pre-flop, you never have to get to that decision, thats the reason you fold potentially troublesome hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Almost all hands are potentially troublesome. Especially facing a pair on board. I agree that AJo should be folded most of the time, but the argument about potential trouble doesn't apply well here. I assume you would be happy to play JJ which would be in equal trouble to this board with a T instead of the J.

I would be very concerned about a 4 in the situation above. It's terrible play in my opinion to be in this hand after the preflop play with 44 or A4, but I would still lean towards believing it after seing the aggressive play on flop and turn.