Limping with pocket pairs -theory question

[Blue Sky]

I want to post a conversation I had last night about limping vs. raising with big pocket pairs in low limit games. I think most of you will agree with my argument but I wanted to hear any and all arguments for and against raising and limping.

I'm pro raise no matter your position with all of the following hands AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AK (s&o.) An acquaintance, who is one of the better poker players I know (a pro player who makes his living at larger limits across the country and online but plays the local Colorado games infrequently for the social aspects of seeing long time friends,) is against raising big pocket pairs from up front and seems to be leaning towards limping in with them from any position.

My thoughts:

As we all know and have seen proven by mathematics big pocket pairs go down in value vs. larger numbers of opponents. The following numbers are based on 1 million simulated hands and are the winning percentages as shown by playing out to the river vs. 1 thru 9 opponents. (this info was copied from a web sit Dynasty posted recently - http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm

Opponents: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Hand
AA 85.3 73.4 63.9 55.9 49.2 43.6 38.8 34.7 31.1

I realize that by raising from early position you will more then likely lose some of the more solid players that recognize your raising standards but this is exactly what I want. There are enough fish in most games (especially LL) that your more then likely going to get called down by a couple of players which is what you want, to reduce the number of collective outs vs. your hand. I also believe that by playing from a position of power (checked to the raiser, etc) that your bets are going to be respected more then if the other players have no idea of how weak or strong your hands is pre-flop.

His argument:

My friend believes that because so many LL players fail to recognize your and anyone else's raising standards and call anyways your better off to see a cheaper flop and rely on your abablity to out play them post flop. He believes that by creating a larger pot pre-flop that most of these fish don't have the slightest clue about pot odds they only realize that there is a "big" pot and they think they should stick around because of the chance to take down the one hand they can tell stories about later.

Here is a bit of contradictory information but I wanted to post all aspects of his argument. He also believes that because he is recognized as an above average player by other solid players that his raises are given to much respect by the solid players and that he feels that if he leaves them in a hand that he can play off from them to eliminate others from the pot post flop. IE He limped with A's and I flopped top pair great kicker and act before him, he can then raise and make everyone else pay 2 bets to continue eliminating the fish with bottom pair from playing for the second pair and hopefully eliminating the pot odds for someone to draw to a straight or flush. My counter argument is that if he is getting too much respect then he should be raising much more with hands like higher suited connectors and the like.

Hell, maybe this is a stupid post and we both probably have flaws in our thinking but if any of you have strong feelings one way or another please feel free to respond.

[Robk]

[ QUOTE ]
As we all know and have seen proven by mathematics big pocket pairs go down in value vs. larger numbers of opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you've proved that big pocket pairs win less often, not that they go down in value. Against one opponent, assuming there is no raising and one bet goes in on every street, your EV = .85(3 BB) - .15(3 BB) = 2.1 BB. Against 9 opponents with the same assumptions your EV = (.31)(27 BB) - .69(3 BB) = 6.3 BB.

[Blue Sky]

Seems like a matter of symantics (you win less vs. multiple opponents so therefore I value them less?) but that is why I put a disclaimer on my original post that my arguments are usually flawed. My terminanolgy is usually even worse them my flawed arguments. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The most common mistake in poker is not betting/raising when you hold the best hand. Preflop if you hold AA you should be playing it like a monkey.

[Allan]

You should check out Clarkmeisters post entitled "A good theoretical question"
It addresses why your good hands need to be raised preflop.

Allan