mid pair HU vs BB aggressor

[DavidC]

Shill says the flop is a call... and he's always right, but I'm going to say something else because I've got a thick skull. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Why not raise the flop here, and bet to the river if he's calling down (as this would indicate overs)?

...

I'll read the rest of this thread to see what people are saying and why... I'm not too good at HU play.

[digitalis]

I'd like Shillx's view on this, but I'll take a shot at it.

I get the feeling villain has overcards or has a big hand. If he has overs he his likely to put another bet in on the turn if we just call the flop. But if we raise the flop we won't get anymore money out of him.

Also, our pot equity is much higher on the turn if villian doesn't pair. So we make more money on a turn raise.

[detruncate]

[ QUOTE ]
This is third-pair, not middle pair.

The difference is huge, in terms of both outs as well as how likely you are to be ahead.

... and I'm a nit.

Edit: Oh... you meant middle pocket pair... cool

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Bad title. Well nitted.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
This is tough situation. You are either WB, or not that far ahead (he has overs).

I think waitng to raise is the best line. Your pot equity goes way up on the turn if he just has overs. If the turn is favorable raise. After that I'm probably folding to further aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing, on the turn, I don't think raising is a good idea: if he re-raises, you've put in a ton of action altready. If you set the tone on the flop, you know that his future actions are made based on his hands more often and that he'll probably dump his overs.

In HU play, a lot of your value comes from getting to the showdown and collecting your initial PF showdown equity. If you can't get to showdown you're giving up a lot.

Anyways, I don't think raising the turn is good, because it hurts your chance at showing down, and if you fold to a t3b you're showing way way too much weakness.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is a call. Turn is probably a mixed strategy. Sometimes bet with the intention of not putting another bet in UI and sometimes check with the intention of not putting another bet in UI except maybe as a bluff raise.

Edit: River is a check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill, why is the flop a call?

Also, if you had bet and he donks the river, that makes 7.75bb in there... you're putting in 2 bets, so he has to fold something that he bet that beats you maybe 25% of the time.

I'm a little skeptical that this would happen that often, and your language was a little hesitant in this statemetn... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Could you comment on that?

[Shillx]

This has little to do with this hand. It is the concepts that I deem important.

Well see I disagree with the board's theroy in a few ways on a hand like this.

1) The general theory here is that we should only raise if our hand doesn't mind a reraise.

2) Most people here play their hands straight up preflop.

Most people play in a way that they only raise when they like their hand. Our strategy destroys theirs because we get maximum value from them when they are beat, and we lose the least when we are behind. The problem comes when you start playing against people who know how to exploit you. Let's say that you are the villian in the hand that Degenerate [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] shared with us, and you hold A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. You bet the flop and our hero raises (you can't see his cards). What is your best play?

a) 3-bet and prepare to bet the turn
b) Fold
c) Call and check/raise the turn
d) Call and check/call the turn

The problem with making these raises is that you will get killed in touger games unless you mix up your strategy preflop. We can't have certain hands when we just call preflop (and we aren't raising some hands like AT on the flop), so the villian can just take us to school postflop since our hand is clear as day while his is well hidden. You have to be willing to make this raise with more then a set or low underpair here in order to make it work at the next level. If the goal is to become a better player, you should begin thinking about these concepts now. Mixing strategies is the most effective way to become a better player right now (not talking about FPS here). Raising here might be the best way to get the $$$$ now, but poker is not a vacuum and you have to consider the consequences of these plays against different types of oppoenents.

Brad <font color="white">The answer is d) BTW</font>

Calling is actually a really good strategy here. Sometimes we will calldown with AK. Other times we will calldown with 88 or JJ. Sometimes we will have a flush or straight draw. So it is tough for the villian to know if he is good or not with a hand like AK or AQ.

[nomadtla]

[ QUOTE ]
This has little to do with this hand. It is the concepts that I deem important.

Well see I disagree with the board's theroy in a few ways on a hand like this.

1) The general theory here is that we should only raise if our hand doesn't mind a reraise.

2) Most people here play their hands straight up preflop.

Most people play in a way that they only raise when they like their hand. Our strategy destroys theirs because we get maximum value from them when they are beat, and we lose the least when we are behind. The problem comes when you start playing against people who know how to exploit you. Let's say that you are the villian in the hand that Degenerate [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] shared with us, and you hold A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. You bet the flop and our hero raises (you can't see his cards). What is your best play?

a) 3-bet and prepare to bet the turn
b) Fold
c) Call and check/raise the turn
d) Call and check/call the turn

The problem with making these raises is that you will get killed in touger games unless you mix up your strategy preflop. We can't have certain hands when we just call preflop (and we aren't raising some hands like AT on the flop), so the villian can just take us to school postflop since our hand is clear as day while his is well hidden. You have to be willing to make this raise with more then a set or low underpair here in order to make it work at the next level. If the goal is to become a better player, you should begin thinking about these concepts now. Mixing strategies is the most effective way to become a better player right now (not talking about FPS here). Raising here might be the best way to get the $$$$ now, but poker is not a vacuum and you have to consider the consequences of these plays against different types of oppoenents.

Brad <font color="white">The answer is d) BTW</font>

Calling is actaully a really good mixed strategy here. Sometimes we will calldown with AK. Other times we will calldown with 88 or JJ. Sometimes we will have a flush or straight draw. So it is tough for the villian to know if he is good or not with a hand like AK or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

NH, this is just plain goodness.

I'm probably wrong.

But it seems like a lot of HU advise seems to involve a call down line, getting to SD and exploiting our PF equity.

[DavidC]

Thanks for the response, bro. It was awesome!

I just want to let you know that that offer I made, to let you play for me, is still standing... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

---

Edit: FWIW, I REALLY like calling with AT. If he's got three outs, let's let him try to hit his ace, keep him going if he doesn't hit... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[baronzeus]

you have AA here? and you are calling down on a T9x board?

no, i think you need to check-raise the turn. the way you mix it up is by raising/check-raising the turn with a broader variety of hands (besides monsters). like, start doing it with a pair of 9s. or a pair of 2s. keep them on their feet. 1BB is just too much to give up.

oh, and btw, im pretty sure if i was the villain iin this hand with AA and hero had been watching me play, i would be called down with almost anything. i am just too random with my raises that putting me on a hand when i raise/check-raise the turn is very difficult.