Betsize on river (if it's a bet)

[Kjell201]

Prima , .5/1$ NL 6-max

I get A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the CO.
2 folds, I make it 4$, btn folds, sb makes it 13.5$, bb folds, I call.

I started the hand with 110$ and sb with 85$.
Anyone do anything different so far? (Villians 2nd hand at the table, no read)

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Pot 27$
Villian bets 13$, I just call. Is just calling ok here? I figured that if I raise I let him get away with KK/QQ too easy and by calling I can make it look like I'm on the flushdraw and he might continue to make me "pay" for my "draw".

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Pot: about 50$
He checks, I bet 20$.
Comments?
He calls.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Pot: 90$
He checks. Hero ???
I made a small bet of 26$, no idea why I picked that amount. If villian calls he will have 13$ left so should I just make it 40$ and put him all in? It feels like if he's calling 27$ he's calling 40$ aswell and that way I "waste" 13$ whenI have the best hand by not making him pay his whole stack.
Does anyone check behind btw?

Thanks

It sure looks like he has KK here. He could be getting real tricky with AA but I bet that the vast majority of time he has KK and occasionally QQ or even JJ. He could also have the Kh which is why he called the turn. So I don't think he has a whole lot to call with here, so I would be inclined to bet 20 for half his stack. He might not want to put the rest of his money in here but he might put in half for another 20 to win 110. So I bet 20 to make sure I get called.

[Guin]

I don't like your bet size on the flop at all. What if you were reraised by AKh? Now you are giving him odds to draw to a flush that beats your possible AA (from his point of view). I think if you reraise here you get a better idea of where you stand in this hand.

I might try to get him all in right at that point. If you are correct in a big PP then you don't get a call on the river. If you are wrong on the flush draw then any bet on the river is throwing good money away.

WA / WB in my mind but the time to figure that out was on the flop (raise to $40).

Guin

I completely agree that you have to raise on the flop for definition. The flop bet could be a probe bet, or a value bet with a set, or a blocking bet with a flush draw, which he would hit on the turn. Im not sure about the amount, but I really believe you need more definition.

[Kjell201]

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I don't like your bet size on the flop at all.

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I didn't make bet on the flop.

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What if you were reraised by AKh? Now you are giving him odds to draw to a flush that beats your possible AA (from his point of view).

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I don't raise anywhere in the HH, so I can't be reraised. I also don't think I'm giving him that good odds to draw to a flush because his implied odds arent big (stacksizes)
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I think if you reraise here you get a better idea of where you stand in this hand.

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I want to make money more than get information. Raising will get KK and QQ an easy escape instead of having them "charging me for a flush draw" that they might think I have. In other words, I think raising the flop is terrible because of his whole range (AA-JJ,AK, possibly some worse hands) there's only 1 single hand that has good odds to beat me if I'm ahead already and that's AhKh. (I also lose less against AA this way). The other hands in his range will fold meaning I'll get no more money from them.

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I might try to get him all in right at that point.

[/ QUOTE ] Again, terrible advice IMO.

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If you are correct in a big PP then you don't get a call on the river.

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I did get a call on the river by a worse hand (don't know which one, Prima HH's doesnt say)
Possible calling hands is KK/QQ and AQ/AJ.

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I completely agree that you have to raise on the flop for definition. The flop bet could be a probe bet, or a value bet with a set, or a blocking bet with a flush draw, which he would hit on the turn. Im not sure about the amount, but I really believe you need more definition.

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Like I mentioned above, I disagree. The only definition I will get here is either
A) He calls the raise and could have either a set, a worse ace, a badly played big PP, a flushdraw... In other words no information.
B) He correctly lays down KK/QQ instead of paying me off on later streets.
So, like I said, I think raising the flop is terrible, in this hand.

Although I'm interrested in opinions on all streets the topic says Betsize on river and you two only comment on the flop.

Thank you dalerobk for a good reply.

[Isura]

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I completely agree that you have to raise on the flop for definition. The flop bet could be a probe bet, or a value bet with a set, or a blocking bet with a flush draw, which he would hit on the turn. Im not sure about the amount, but I really believe you need more definition.

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Raising this flop doesn't accomplish much. One only possible set is AA, so hero is way ahead of AQ, KK-QQ and way behind only AA. There's a very good chance that hero is way ahead, and villain most likely doesn't have many outs.

To the OP, I think the flop and turn are good. Your turn bet size is interesting. It's small enough that KK-QQ will come along for the ride, but KK and AQ may call a larger (say $35) bet. Bit I don't mind your betsize since it is easier to get away from if he check/raises this turn, and he will callodown more often when drawing very thin. I probably just push the river because I would just push the river against this villain and expect to get called a lot.

You think a pot sized raise is a bad thing? I mean, if you look at the implied odds, the 3 to 1 he's giving himself on the flop pays for a flush draw. The reason I commented on the flop is because you said in bold "is calling okay here?" Besides that, I think that you should push on the river, but since you already adressed that, I didnt think that I needed to say anything.

However, I have fallen in love with the turn bet, and I will be using that line more myself, great bet.

[Guin]

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I didn't make bet on the flop.

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That is what I didn't like. Bet the flop I think helps you protect your hand against a flush draw.

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I don't raise anywhere in the HH, so I can't be reraised. I also don't think I'm giving him that good odds to draw to a flush because his implied odds arent big (stacksizes)

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Prima , .5/1$ NL 6-max

I get A K in the CO.
2 folds, I make it 4$, btn folds, sb makes it 13.5$, bb folds, I call.

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Call me nuts but you raised to $4 right? You did raise and you were reraised or I am reading this incorrectly.

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Pot 27$
Villian bets 13$, I just call. Is just calling ok here?

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Calling a half pot gives great odds for someone to draw to the flush. Especially since you would pay them off as shown in the rest of the HH.

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Thank you dalerobk for a good reply.

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If you already have an answer that you want to hear then why do you ask questions? Or did you want someone to pat you on the back and say nice hand?

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I think raising the flop is terrible because of his whole range (AA-JJ,AK, possibly some worse hands) there's only 1 single hand that has good odds to beat me if I'm ahead already and that's AhKh. (I also lose less against AA this way).

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1 hand with good odds??? AKh AQh AJh all have a good chance against you here... of course you have to wonder who is going to reraise preflop with AJ or even AQ... but this is 6 max and I have seen some crazy play at those tables.

Glad that you won the hand... shame that you can't see other people's point of view.

Lets agree that we disagree.

Guin

[Kjell201]

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I didn't make bet on the flop.

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That is what I didn't like. Bet the flop I think helps you protect your hand against a flush draw.

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You either don't understand the HH or use the wrong wording.
Villain acts before me and bets. So I can only fold, call or raise. I'm not sure if you either think I checkcalled or if you by "bet" mean "raise his bet".

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Thank you dalerobk for a good reply.

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If you already have an answer that you want to hear then why do you ask questions?

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I liked his reasoning on the size of the river bet, which was my main question.

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I think raising the flop is terrible because of his whole range (AA-JJ,AK, possibly some worse hands) there's only 1 single hand that has good odds to beat me if I'm ahead already and that's AhKh. (I also lose less against AA this way).

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1 hand with good odds??? AKh AQh AJh all have a good chance against you here... of course you have to wonder who is going to reraise preflop with AJ or even AQ... but this is 6 max and I have seen some crazy play at those tables.

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Raising the flop is wrong. Just terribly, terribly wrong. When I posted the hand I wasn't sure but after thinking about it I'm basically 100% sure that raising is terrible.

If he has AKh,AQh,AJh which are the hands you are arguing I should raise to not let them see the next card cheap they can call profitably no matter how much I raise. AhJh and AhQh are both at 46% to have the best hand by the river. So raising isn't that good against that range.

It's still slightly slightly better than just calling BUT raising will often get hands like KK,QQ,JJ to fold that very possibly will put more money into the pot if I don't raise.
So unless villian shows me Axhearts I'm not raising the flop.


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Glad that you won the hand... shame that you can't see other people's point of view.

Lets agree that we disagree.
Guin

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I can see other people's point of view. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them though. Infact I'd like to have your opinion on what size to bet on the river (which was my main question) given that the hand was played the way it was.

Yeah, we can agree that we disagree about the flop play.

Peace