Hitting the Middle Pair

slider77 · #1 10-01-2003, 10:30 AM

This situation is killing me lately.

I have like A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Just 4 callers with me UTG.

The flop is like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet, a fold, a call, SB calls.

Turn 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks, I bet, a call, SB folds.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, last player raises, I call.

He wins with KK to my JJ.

Should I try a check-raise on the flop? I would have raised the flop if I had top pair like the pot winner, but maybe he was slow playing.

What would be different if I didn't have an inside straight draw and a backdoor flush for the nuts?

lil' · #2 10-01-2003, 10:40 AM

A-Jo from UTG is not the greatest hand in the world. Some people muck it from that spot routinely.

Nothing wrong with the way you played the hand until the river. I think you should consider folding when you are raised, as it appears he has a good hand and you don't have much of anything.

MaxPower · #3 10-01-2003, 10:46 AM

If you are going to check-raise, I think the turn is time to do it. If it gets checked-around on the turn its no big deal and he might lay down weak king if you check-raise.

biggambler · #4 10-01-2003, 10:46 AM

AJ from the 3/10 seat is very risky. However, once you do see the flop you are tied to it to see the turn and probably the river.

biggambler · #5 10-01-2003, 10:50 AM

How can he check raise the turn when his oppenent alreadly checked?

hockey1 · #6 10-01-2003, 10:57 AM

I used to have the same problem. A stretegy that's working better for me is, if there are three or more players to act after me on the flop (and especially where the top card is an A or K, which someone in a multi-caller hand is likely to have), I check, and see what happens. Based on who bets (player/position) -- if anyone bets -- you get a better sense of whether your middle pair is good.

I'm interested to hear whether people think this is a good strategy or not.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #7 10-01-2003, 10:57 AM

There are two players left to act after him.

Jezebel · #8 10-01-2003, 12:11 PM

Playing a middle pair properly is definetly one of my weak points. I probably play it too tight and will post some of my thoughts in hopes that some of the better posters on this board can straighten me out or offer additional insight.

Generally, whenever I flop middle pair it is on somewhat of a high ranking coordinated board, such as the one in the example, due to the fact that I'm not playing many one or two gap connectors that don't have high card value.
I will only lead out betting if there are only 1 or 2 behind me. I consider this sort of a semibluff even though I might be ahead in the hand. If I'm raised I'll usually drop it unless I have a backdoor draw to the nuts and an overcard kicker. If more than 2 people have yet to act, I'll check. In order to call/raise a single bet I need to have the backdoor draw and overcard kicker w/pot odds of at least 6 to 1. If I pick up the nut draw on the turn I many times will checkraise as a semibluff. If my middle pair does not improve on the turn or pick up a draw, then I'm only calling a bet against a habitual bluffer. Many might say that I'm seeing monsters under the bed to be this tight, but I just don't see middle pair worth defending on what is usually a coordinated board. Too many times I'll be shown at least top pair at a showdown. Now that I think about it, rarely if ever do I showdown a middle pair hand that is going to cost me a river bet. Any thoughts are appreciated.

chesspain · #9 10-01-2003, 04:59 PM

I think you played it fine, although I might have check-called the river, since how many weaker hands would have called your river bet? Otherwise, with all of the outs you have, I can't see how betting all the way was anything but +EV.

slider77 · #10 10-01-2003, 05:52 PM

Good point there on the river. I like that.

I just thought there was a good chance he had TT or a JJ with a weak kicker (pretty common at Party), so I was betting for value.

The more I think about it though, wouldn't a check on the flop be the correct play? No way he let's a KK check through. I think I could have received more info with a check instead of a bet.