Level 3 - TT - UTG

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there is any point to playing this hand UNLESS you raise...A limp will get raised more often, and you will then be OOP on a flop that is most times very scary for your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this isn't completely true. If you're raised, NegEV and I agree that I'd then push preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you'd have to, especially to avoid the position dilema.

Well, the other reason I feel raising is better is merely the value of this hand is worth it. I dont think limping is good because of the other outcome, inviting limpers to limp behind. That would be simply throwing 50 chips away when you have a shortish stack as it is.

I hate to make a blanket rule, but I dont think limping UTG is EVER correct beyond level I, and even there I hate it. ( If I am sure a monster will be raised I might do it once in awhile, even then I feel my hand is given away when I RR AI)

I would like to hear NEgEV's reasoning though. Is he limping to rep a big(er) hand?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

[/ QUOTE ]

The buyin impacts my play here somewhat. In a $11-$33 a preflop 125 raise (my standard on this level) gets a 3+ way pot in this spot too often for me to be comfortable from UTG (BB is calling and another call on the way is likely given 7 players left). This play was from a $22/$33 and Hero's stack is fine to limp and make a decision based on the action behind.

In a $109+ raising here will take the pot preflop or get HU enough that I like that play better there.

[/ QUOTE ]

So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry,
I still don't get it though, do you think the non-donk will put Hero on JJ+ and still call preflop with AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I'll humor you one more time. Villain isn't a total donk.

He could be on a range of hands from 77+. Those hands could easily call in this situation if the villain is an avg player. I put him on a hand, or actually 2 hands in this case. My guess, nothing more, and awaiting the results........

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the best hand questions I've seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Unfortunately, this type of hand has been discussed on these boards a few times over the past 11 months I've been here. It's just that I keep changing, so it's good to review.

[adanthar]

I always raise to 150 PF.

On this flop...umm. Well, you don't have ten clean outs; between the times they're tainted and the times he has redraws, you've got about 8. A push may fold a J or a Q, but if his kicker is a ten he's likely to call it, and he probably didn't CC Q9s. I think I just check/fold.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I would limp pf, fold if raised. post flop I will check fold a scary board (overs, 3 to flush/str8, paired board, etc) if unders flop I will bet, if I flop set on a non-scary board I will check flop and call a raise and bet/push turn. If I flop set on a scary board I bet aggressively... assuming I am playing well..

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter

Button (t488)
SB (t1030)
BB (t1855)
Hero (t805)
MP1 (t972)
MP2 (t2205)
CO (t645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Hero?
<font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a horrible flop. I don't know what I do there. Sometimes I push, sometimes I check. Checking is not that bad, that is an uber scary board and villian is apt to check behind if it did not hit him thinking you could be trapping here. Pushing is not horrible since villian only has t500ish left, and the pot is 375. I think a lot here depends on how villain plays. Against an aggressive villain I am more apt to push, against a passive one I am more apt to check/fold the flop, and maybe bet the turn unimporved (though not push) or check if the flop gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing I LIKE about this flop is actually the fact that I did raise UTG AND therefore since there was no more action to me PF, villain cannot put me on any sort of hand besides the fact it is a strong hand. Therefore this flop is JUST as scary to him as it is to me, unless he flopped the nuts. This all points to push...(which might make him suspect I missed horribly).

Bad news is villain is a bit short so he might feel compelled to call with a lot hands with which he might not otherwise (but are still ahead of me). this points to check fold.

So, here is another possibility that I sort of like. Since this flop is scary and one of us might have a "monster" (2pr or better), I like check folding the flop and IF he checks behind I push the turn. He could think I was trying to get him to put chips in on the flop and then when I push the turn he would know that I had it and missed my chence on the flop...he would assess his outs as less on the turn and might have a higher prob of folding.

Bottom line, the only thing completely "wrong" I could see hero doing on this flop would be doijng anything besides pushing or check/folding...between those two, I wouldnt condemn hero for either.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot can happen after I limp and I am very interested in what the shorty button does and what action preceded him. I think with the shorty button there is a good chance of getting him allin HU with some dead chips.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So roughly, are you limp calling a shortie's AI? Are you RRing a raise from a stack that has you covered, or is it all depending on reads of the indiviual player?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot can happen after I limp and I am very interested in what the shorty button does and what action preceded him. I think with the shorty button there is a good chance of getting him allin HU with some dead chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the way I was thinking about this hand: basically, is limping and having a high likliehood of wasting t50 (when 4 goto a flop) outweighed by the positive expectation of getting HU with some dead money?

I think this is fine too, but you have to decide what you are doing when all of the other possible circumstances occur. -i think we already mentioned that you are RRing allin from any raise behind, correct?

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of the best hand questions I've seen. IMO, there is no right way to play it, and no wrong way. Here's my thought process, ala the way Harrington does it in HOH.

Now, I'm going to play this hand. No way I'm folding it. There are no maniacs left at this point who are going to do something stupid. There's no big stack who will push me off. My future in this SNG is now.

Depending on the table and the history, the table is at its weaksest/tightest point. The blinds aren't high and the stacks aren't spread out. Those left are waiting on "big hands." This is a very good place to play this hand.

I can see a mini-raise. That would stop anyone from limping in with QJ or K7 at this point in the tourney, which is least likely to happen, anyway. It would leave me with 700 chips should something bad happen behind me, like a push and a call. I can certainly live with losing a hundred. A mini-raise here doesn't necessarily show weakness. Anyone who thinks it does, I'll play.

A 3X raise puts me down to 650. Not exactly happy about that, but ok. A reraise and I'm going to have to push it or fold it, neither of which makes me a happy camper. I may take the blinds, but I don't really want that result. 75 chips more isn't going to make me a favorite and this hand is better than 75 chips. Raising the usual and I may be crippled to the point of "it's just a matter of time," if it doesn't go my way, and there's lot of ways that aren't my way.

Limping is not an option. Too good a hand. A raise and I'm in the weeds. I'll have no idea where I am, other than out of position. I don't care for set value here, as a set would be overkill. Nice, but not reasonable.

I could push here. A semi-bluff. A little early to be changing gears, I'd rather it be the next round, but that's coming soon. They haven't seen me play many hands, and those they've seen me play, were most likely very good cards. I've got as much of a strong image at this point as I'm likely to have. Any 2 face cards and weak Ax could beat me, but it would be a pretty ballsy call and I'm ahead of them. I'm behind AA, KK, QQ, and JJ at this point, and would be very bad, but worse if I only raise. I'm even with AK and AQ. Everything else, I'm ahead, as long as it's only one caller.

A limp is out. A mini-raise and I may get 2 callers, one behind me and the BB or SB. 2 or more callers puts me at a severe disadvantage. A 3X raise puts my tournament on the line, sooner or later, regardless of the result if it's not a positive result. All in makes it likely that I'll get no more than one call. (More than one and I win, the cash register rings.) I've got a good hand in this spot, and at some point I'll have to gamble it up. This is as good as any.

I push it all in and take my chances.

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Before this fine hand example goes off the hotlist, would you guys do me the favor of going through my thinking and pointing out any flaws I might have in it? Aside from totally disagreeing and calling me a donk, that is. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

What made this hand interesting to me is all the possibilities and going through each one. Not many hands are like this. Pretty cool.

I hope this request is ok. Thanks.

CJ