AQ following a TAG's open-raise

SlantNGo · #1 10-05-2005, 11:03 PM

No read on MP2, aside from PT stats showing that he's a TA-A after about 40 hands, in the 18/10 range. CO is extremely loose and aggressive pre-flop (60/25 after ~60 hands) but only moderately aggressive postflop. I don't see him as a bluffer, but he's the type that will push decent made hands too hard.

When he bets the flop, I put him on either a weaker ace or a mid PP of some sort. I call here because I don't think CO's hand really affects my decision, unless he happens to hold a gutshot, in which case I gave him a profitable call. What I didn't want is to raise, have CO fold, and MP2 fold to my raise, which is consistent with the range of hands I put him on.

The flop cap was a decision I made at the time because I did not believe that MP2 would not cap pre-flop with AK. My weak call on the flop, and his 3-bet following that makes me think something in the range of A9-AQ.

At this point, I am beyond confused, and the turn play suffers. 4 to the straight should not be a threat to me at this point, and even if CO was playing the flush draw, I'm going to see the river (giving myself around 6 or 7 outs here for my flush draw). I'm not sure whether I should just call or raise the turn here.

So, which was my biggest mistake and what should I have done instead?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls, CO raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls, CO raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls, CO calls $3.79 (All-In), MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (22.93 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 22.93 BB

istewart · #2 10-05-2005, 11:44 PM

What was the reasoning for call/capping the flop?

SlantNGo · #3 10-06-2005, 12:08 AM

The call was because of the range I put MP2 on (lower ace, mid PP), I thought he would fold to a raise. So the outcome I did not want was to raise, and have both CO and MP2 fold.

The cap was a value cap. CO would easily overplay a lower Ace here, and I just didn't believe MP2 had AK since he didn't cap it pre-flop.

I'm really not sure what to do on this flop, but certainly call/capping was not the right option.

Augster · #4 10-06-2005, 12:19 AM

Not that my advice means anything, but I'll give it a shot...

I'd raise the flop. I think the hand plays out a little differently then. By calling behind after raising his raise pre, I think it tells him you weren't betting an Ace. Which is good thinking, if CO weren't in the hand. Because the CO is there, I try to make it two-bets to him instead of seeming weak. I wouldn't mind if he folded.

But, I have no idea what the CO could have. What is good enough to call 3 bets cold pre-flop? Maybe a small or mid PP. AA caps, KK caps, QQ could cap, AKs caps. All of the A's are unlikely as there is one on the board and you have one.

So raising the flop and showing strength is the way to go I would say, but I still doubt CO is going to fold to two bets after calling 3 cold. With you looking weak on the flop, I think it encouraged CO to raise, assuming MP2 would raise, to make it two back to you to hopefully make you fold and get head's up with MP2.

When it's 2 back to you, at least that would give you an excuse to fold and get out cheap. But since we may have the best hand, I don't mind the cap.

I think the turn may have played differently if you had raise MP2's flop bet as you had preflop.

As it was played though, I think I'm calling down at this point. They'll have to show me AK or A5 or trips as I now have a gutter to likely 1/2 the pot and a redraw to the 2nd nut flush.

I like the check behind on the river though. Either MP2 has just had enough, or was looking to C/R after twice 3-betting. You never improved and with the action, I think you'd have had to to win this hand.

Tough hand.

Student Caine · #5 10-06-2005, 01:09 AM

Preflop: I do not like to call a flop bet with AQ, especially from a TAA (even if it is only after 40 hands). If you are dominated then you are looking to give away a lot of chips.

Flop: My limited experience is that a lot of players at the Micro level will not cap with AKo. So I don't know that your read here is solid. This is a tough spot here as you have an A, but may be outkicked and could be looking at both straight and flush redraws (granted the straight isn't too likely).

Also, the donk-cap is a strange move. I think if I do anything here it is to raise the flop and either put some pressure on CO or ruin/weaken his odds with a drawing hand.

Turn: We're in an even worse spot here....we may still be dominated, there is a three-flush and a four-straight on the board. We do have a draw to the second nut here and it isn't extremely likely that someone has a 4 (unless, based on your read it is CO). The issue that we have here is that we are getting odds to our flush the whole way. I have a hard time folding here, but I don't think I'm good too often.

River: Does anyone think we have fold equity here against MP2? I think he would have to be brain dead to fold to one bet in this situation, but if we could get AK to fold that would be huge...I'm talking family size.

Roadstar · #6 10-06-2005, 01:10 AM

Preflop 3 bet is not standard. While a small sample, open raiser looks like a TAA, in which you don't have much equity facing a raise with AQ (try pokerstove yourself using a 10-12% hand range (the guys PFR)). 3 betting AQ should usually be reserved against LAGs with wide opening ranges or possible steal attempts.

BTW, capping AKo is not standard - villain could indeed have AK (see SSHE starting hand guide).

Flop play isn't that great but you do have CO padding the pot for you and villain - you are probably misrepresenting a monster hand here with the call reraise.

Given that villain is unphased and continues bet and 3 betting on the turn, unfortunate that CO is costing you a lot more to showdown.

On the river I'm surprised by MP2's check, scared of the board betting. checking behind here is standard.

Its hard to describe this because I did have this tendency too - you seem to want to get involved in pots to get CO because he is a poor player but this is a bad place to do so preflop. Be patient, there will be better opportunities later - and maybe even try sitting behind CO instead of isolating him constantly and take his money! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hoss1193 · #7 10-06-2005, 06:40 AM

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What I didn't want is to raise, have CO fold, and MP2 fold to my raise, which is consistent with the range of hands I put him on.

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I don't understand this. The pot is not exactly "big" at this point, but it's not insignificant either, and all you have is TP2K...not strong enough to slowplay. Seems much better to give CO 6.75-1 pot odds than to offer him 12.5-1 for a call. As far as not wanting both CO and MP2 to fold, I'd think there's nothing you'd want MORE than to see both of them fold at this point. (of course, at that specific point, there's no way you know they're going to raise and 3-bet it back to you).

Nfinity · #8 10-06-2005, 08:06 AM

You call too much post flop sir. You should be raising if your playing.

Your flop 3-bet is better than just calling. Given his position and the fact that it's folded to him, it's fine.

Now on the flop, the last thing you want to see is an ace flop and him betting into you. Your reasoning for just calling is so defies the realm for logic.

You are correct, CO's hand doesn't affect your decision, because you don't know it.

What does affect your decision is what he could hold. If he has a single pair you give him odds by just calling that you would not by raising. Force your opponents to make mistakes, it's part of the game. If he has a diamond draw you want to charge him more to see it.

The main thing I don't understand is why you would Cap for value but not raise.

The Turn is pretty bad as well, mainly magnified by your play on the Flop.

[ QUOTE ]
What I didn't want is to raise, have CO fold, and MP2 fold to my raise, which is consistent with the range of hands I put him on.

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I know, I hate money as well.

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The flop cap was a decision I made at the time because I did not believe that MP2 would not cap pre-flop with AK. My weak call on the flop, and his 3-bet following that makes me think something in the range of A9-AQ.

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This hand range is far to narrow, and conveniently doesn't include anything that beats you. Ruling out AK just because he didn't cap is a mistake as well.

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4 to the straight should not be a threat to me at this point

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Only if your flush draw doesn't come in, and you spend 100BB's getting there.(an exageration of course)

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I'm going to see the river (giving myself around 6 or 7 outs here for my flush draw)

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You have 9 outs to the 2nd Nut Flush, no more, no less. You probably could have raised, maybe.

SlantNGo · #9 10-06-2005, 09:08 AM

Key mistakes I made in this hand: Not raising the flop. I was pretty confident of this one after I played back the hand following my session. Leaving AK out of my range for MP2 because he didn't cap pre-flop.

Now, this part I don't understand:

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Now on the flop, the last thing you want to see is an ace flop and him betting into you.

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Shouldn't that be a great thing for me? I see this as more of an action that a weaker kicker would take rather than AK.

So, let's say I had raised the flop, an the action went like this...

MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero ???

Do I call here? Then call 4 more on the turn with my 2nd nut flush draw? (That I devalued to about 6 or 7 outs because 1/4 of the time that one of them have AK, they will have the King of diamonds).