online hourly rates

[Jon Matthews]

there will always plenty of european players who will keep NL alive - if it does lose popularity at all, my feeling is that it will be solely due to a decline in popularity in the US

PL and NL are what we learn here first - a lot of you guys say you've forgotten how to play limit.... most of us have never known!


Jon

[Centrist]

I'm a novice compared to the other posters here. So any observations from me are properly taken with a grain of salt.

I played .50/1.00 limit at Party for some months and kind of developed a simple theory on beating all those loose players -- the main part of which is to play hands that develop big (pairs, suited Aces & Kings, suited connectors) and leave the other usual "strong" hands alone (two face cards -- really, anything AQo and below).

The problem I think most people have is getting caught with top pair, great kicker and thinking they're "strong". Just have patience and take them down with monster hands. And no, they don't figure out you're a rock and adjust accordingly.

Using that theory, I took my $50 buy in up to about $350.

I then started tinkering with the $25 NL tables. Scared the crap out of me at first, and I made all kinds of novice mistakes -- mainly calling raises when I shouldn't or overbetting.

I now have a little "no limit" theory too. Someone made a comment here a few weeks ago that they basically no longer bluff at no-limit. And that's kind of the core of my theory.

No limit really lets you exploit the inherent weakness of online play -- the fact that it's just too easy (and anonymous) to click a button and put your money in. Sitting in a ring game and looking people in the eyes, it's harder to justify sliding a mountain of chips into the middle, and it's just plain embarassing when you get punked.

Online, you just feel like you're a click of a button away from knowing, for sure, if you have the best of it.

So the mistakes people make -- even when they're seemingly playing fairly tight -- is they end up calling you when they shouldn't.

And that shifts the balance-of-power away from bluffing (where they end up calling you down even when your big bet suggests they shouldn't) and toward playing tight and aggressive. Get a big hand and then hurt them with it.

That theory has taken me from about $350 to $700, and it's been a lot faster than the climb to $350.

I suppose it worries me a little bit, though, that my game is so simple. Might get massacred on that inevitable day when I sit down in a casino. (Already planning to visit the Grand in Biloxi when I head down south to visit with my family.)

[AliasMrJones]

I'm a newbie to poker and have worked my way up from $.25/.50 UB to $2/4 party limit. Have also been playing NL tourneys mainly on UB, but now SnG's on Party. Low buy-in $5 mostly with one or two $10. I love the differences between the limit ring games and the NL tourneys and the differences during tourneys. The NL SnG is different than the limit ring game and the later stage(s) of the SnG is different than the beginning! Lately I've been working on my NL short-handed and heads up play and thanks to Sklansky and watching some short-handed and heads up NL tourney play, I've gotten much better.

The difference in play is refreshing and helps me stay interested. If I play ring games a lot for a while, I'll play some tourneys for a break from the ring games and after playing a few tourneys, the limit ring game feels refreshing.

I've not played NL for real money and having seen Rounders, it scares me to think about it. But, I'm doing well at SnG's...Are there NL stakes where you can play with the $5 or $10 you might spend on an SnG, but make more than you'd win at an SnG?

[buddycat]

Centrist,
To respons to your post, you're play may be a winning style in the .25 / .50 no limit at Party, but I think you are far from maximizing your profit.

Just to give you an idea, I played that limit for one week for 25 hours and made 800.00.

I didn't do it by playing anthing like what you're talking about.

This is sort of off topic from the original post so I'll leave it at that.

[Centrist]

No doubt you're a lot better than me. I can see a lot of the levels of sophistication of no-limit play, but I don't know how to exploit them.

I can also see the vulnerabilities in my game. In particular, when I have a decent hand, but not a great one, and I show weakness in my betting and someone raises me off of it (with, possibly, a worse hand).

I have also played around a bit with bluffing and semi-bluffing -- but found, in my limited experience, that they're just too likely to call you to make it work.

I still sometimes bluff at small pots where everyone's showing weakness (and only a few people are in). I get the feeling that works at least the 50% of the time it takes to make it profitable ... while also giving some cover to my other pot-size bets.

I've been reading this forum for the past couple months, and also some of the articles linked here. It really helps to see the scenarios posted here and to think about what I do, or would have done, and compare it to the comments.

Interesting stuff. I appreciate all the time people take to explain everything.

[fireman664]

I slowly worked my way up to $3-$6 limit, and was having alot of success. I was able to cashout once a month for $200 or so, after having built an adequate BR. I now have moved to $50NL, 2 tables at a time and am bringing in roughly $2k a month (at party). I've had similar success at the $100 tables, but since I'm not making more money there I have choosen to stay at the $50 game. Most of these players are very easy to read. Most play any Ace, and call you down when it hits. They have betting patterns that are easily picked up on. Alot of all ins preflop with 99,JJ ect. Most cant let go of any pocket pairs, especially AA or KK...even when its obvious they are beat. In 5 months I've bluffed twice, and both times successfully (both were 2+2ers, and could lay a good hand down). So to answer your question, there is money to be made there, and your plan is a good one. Just be aware the swings can be tough sometimes...but thats the natur of the beast.

[fireman664]

I agree with you....this place has truly helped my game. I dont post alot mainly because most of the people here have alot more experience and knowledge than I do. so as my boss used to tell me, "dont let the nickle slow the dollar down". So I'll get out of the way. The one post that scared me though was the one where they said NL would die off, due to the advantage of the skilled player.

for the love of Christ and all thats holy I hope not....I'm all worried now. thanks. gonna start playing marathon sessions i think, before everyone runs away and I'm stuck playing only 2+2ers...although those would be some good games.

[illmatic]

I've had a similar experience at Party/Stars. I started with .25/50c then .50/1 limit ring games, was doing well, but hated the slow grind. I moved over to the .25/50c games at Party and Stars. I think they fit my game better. You can punish the chasers and when you know you are leading, you can often get the fish to bite and break them. I've been playing NL maybe 200 hours or so and have added bits to my game over that time. Over the last 60 hours, I have made $2k, $30+/hr. I play 3-4 tables at a time. I only play a few hours a day after work and on weekends. I would be interested in trading ideas and strategy with you on the following thoughts.

1. What is your experience with the profit potential at the $25NL vs. the $50 and $100? I don't have any experience with either. I wonder if it's worth my while considering the possible increase in swing.

2. What is your play with AK? I experimented with many different ways of playing it, and I think maximizing the potential on this hand is key, since it is your most common "big" hand. Right now, I only raise it a little in late position. This allows me to take a free card off if I miss, or bluff if there are 2-3 players in and I miss. This may be heresy to some, but hear me out. In these weak games, people will call your pre-flop pot sized raise with pocket pairs, AQ, Axs, etc. You are not the favorite and will not fold them with a bet post flop. It gets expensive to chase your overcard and you often will have to lay the AK down if the flop misses. Ot the other hand, if you raise a little, or limp, you let trash hands like Ax and Kx unsuited play. These players will call you to the river when the A or K hit. You stand to make good money in these common situations.

3. Any difference you have noticed between Party and Stars? I think they are both weak, but in different ways. Party players can be sort of loose aggressive and Stars players loose passive/weak tight. I make more money in the Party games I think because my aggressive nature makes me bet into Stars players when they play soft or indecisively.

Send me a PM or reply here.

Thanks,
illmatic