AKs against two big pairs

[nichtgut]

Hi
On-line 10/20. Good table, but the people involved in this hand are tight, don't know if they're good yet, but it seems so.

I have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in LP.
UTG limps, folded to me, I raise. SB reraises and UTG now caps! I call as does the SB.
Right now I put both of them on high pairs, perhaps one of them has AK as well. Would you still call PF?

Flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
SB checks, which is an obvious trap, but I don't mind that. UTG bets out. What would you have done? I raised. If I'm up against KK and QQ, I have a 43.5% chance to win the pot. KK is favorite with 49%. It seems to me, if both call, I recieve the correct odds, 2-1 for my raise. Besides that, I'm on the button. If the QQ folds (because I know the SB will reraise), I improve my odds to win the hand to 46%, KK now a 54% favorite, so I don't mind him folding either. Or am I thinking incorrectly?

Of course, I don't KNOW I'm up against KK and QQ, it might be AA and KK as well. Or AA and QQ.

My friend argued that calling here is best, but I don't think I agree. He says that he wouldn't want to scare away the QQ and that we would want to draw cheaply, because the QQ could have the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], which maybe would call another BB if a diamond hit the turn.

Me, I like jamming this pot.

But I'm,
Nicht Gut

[Coilean]

If you think the SB wants to put in a check raise here, I think you should just call with an eye to 3-betting or capping the flop, and taking a free turn card unless you improve. Excepting a set (which wouldn't bother me yet), you are the flop favorite against anything but AA (certainly UTG is representing AA-KK, with the SB likely to have AK/QQ-88), and even then you make money on the flop betting as long as both guys stay with you.

[David Sklansky]

Again, this is an interesting question but not an important one. I periodically point out these situations, not to be a spoilsport but in a genuine effort to make sure our fans are the most successul poker players.

[Vehn]

interesting but not important

Welcome to the internet.

Seriously if all we had to discuss was important questions about limit texas hold'em this place would be a ghost town.

[Depraved]

That's funny - I thought one area for discussion was fairly important, and that was whether calling two cold against probable overpairs was even profitable. In this case the flop was nice, but most of the time it won't be. I can remember all the times where I (rightly) folded AKo to one raise from a particular type of opponent. If you figured both of your TIGHT opponents probably had KK or better, would most people here call another 2? I don't believe I would even though it's 5-1 with position. The pot will be contested aggressively eliminating the correct odds for backdoor flush draws. Flopping top pair is even more perilous. What about one opponent with QQ or better, and one with KK or better?

I don't have Turbo Texas Hold Em or any other simulation program, but I'd be interested in hearing whether calling 2 more small bets will be profitable against two opponents with the above described hands.

I'd also love to know what David would do in this situation, and like to know why he thinks it isn't important. I imagine that information might be the most valuable to me.

[Sehr Gut]

I cant see why its not important on the flop to not make the QQ to fold. If you just call the flop bet, UTG holding QQ will never fold. I dont think its so good to raise with the flushdraw at all in this spot because SB will keep on raising, making the draw just more expensive. If you hit your flush you can take at least one more big bet from QQ as well. SB will bet out if the flush gets there and QQ will call.
The only scenario when QQ will beat you is if an A and a Q in the wrong suit hits on the turn and river.

About the preflop question if you should call two more small bets i think its very tough to say that both players have QQ or better. SB could absolutely play 99 1010 JJ AK AQ in the same way.

[Depraved]

No, you're getting the correct betting odds (2-1) to jam the pot on the flop. Since the odds of making the flush after the flop are about 1.86-1, you should try to get all your money in and matched by both opponents now. On the turn, you'll have to slow down, and maybe if you're very lucky, they will check to you allowing a free card.

Saying the small blind would raise with other hands is usually correct, but I'm not sure if this is likely here, since both opponents were described as particularly tight. I don't remember my tightest opponents 3betting in the small blind with 99.