River aggression, online 10-20

mandrAKe · #1 10-03-2005, 07:11 PM

UTG+1 is not awful, somewhat weak. MP2 is a total donk I've seen playing gutshots as monsters and seems to like bluffing a hand all the way.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $10.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, MP3 (poster) calls, 4 folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets

yooou like mistah?

toss · #2 10-03-2005, 07:19 PM

I'd raise this PF.

I'd probably CR the flop since my hand is strong and the pot is getting big.

I'm still thinking about the river.

W. Deranged · #3 10-03-2005, 07:21 PM

This hand was played very poorly.

1. I like open-raising this pre-flop, but that is one of those totally useless pre-flop conversations I care not to initiate.

2. I'm almost always just betting this flop, though with one player one either side between me and the donkish raiser, check-raising is also an option. I think I like a bet-call flop/donk-bet turn line here, though check-raising and leading is also good. A lot of my decision will depend on my reads of the two intermediate players. Betting out is nice because, against the type of player described, it seems to set up quite well for a screwplay, which rules (betting the flop and then check-raising the turn).

3. I can't see why you wouldn't at least get aggressive on the turn. In multiway pots, it's generally much better to try to get your aggressive moves in on early streets when you can:

a. Force multiple players into tough situations of either calling multiple bets to try to beat you or folding to protect your hand.

b. More easily predict and control the action, and not get into tough situations of spewing multiple big bets when you may be likely to be beat.

c. Get your money in when it is most likely to be ahead. A hand like KJ give reverse implied odds; later cards are generally more likely to hurt than help you, and waiting until later streets to raise plays into the hands of drawing opponents, who are hoping to get paid off on their drawing hands, and are hoping not to have to put much money in on the early streets. (THIS IS LIKE REALLY IMPORTANT!)

Yeah... so I hate the turn.

4. River makes me vomit. Sure, you may have the donk beat, but you are making the horrible mistake of crafting fancy plays directed at one player that neglects the presence of the other. This sort of absurd promotion raise is cool in concept and feels like an orgasm when it works, but you have to consider whether it's actually a good idea. UTG may still have a big hand and be capable of calling two cold. The donkey's river raise may actually be meaningful (he did call the turn after all and there aren't all that many draws he could have missed... though he is a donk). Spewing 3 BB to try to win a 13 bet pot just seems like a huge investment that is almost certainly going to be at least -1 BB EV or more here.

So, yeah, this hand sucks.

ncboiler · #4 10-03-2005, 07:37 PM

Why not raise PF and check raise the flop? I would raise the PF 100% of the time.

W. Deranged · #5 10-03-2005, 07:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the PF 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so rigid in your thinking...

ncboiler · #6 10-03-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the PF 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so rigid in your thinking...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not. I rounded up from 98%. Besides....47.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

JacksonTens · #7 10-03-2005, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the PF 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be so rigid in your thinking...

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought we said we wouldn't talk about PF. I'm not.
I think C/R on the flop is the best and leading the turn. Gives a far better indication than becoming a Callstation river spewer. THis play is way too fancy. I hate fancy.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]