Slow Playing

[squiffy]

Yes, I have to agree with Thomas, it seems to be a sliding scale question. And almost impossible to quantify the optimal amount of slowplaying. Slowplaying is clearly a valuable tool, otherwise we wouldn't have a name for it and poker players wouldn't do it. But how much and when?

If we had 101 players who played identical poker. And followed 1 million hands played over 20 years. And player
zero raised none of the time with AA, and player one raised 1% of the time with AA, and so on until player 100 who raises with AA 100% of the time -- who would have the most money?????

If a player always raises with AA, and you know how he plays and pay attention to how he plays, then you would be a bit less likely to call his preflop raise or his flop bet when the flop has an A in it.

On the other extreme, if a player never raises with AA preflop, you will be hard pressed to figure out when he has AA. (Though, if he does raise, ironically, he cannot have AA. As a practical matter no one is this extreme. And no one pays attention that closely.)

But as a general rule, when you have good hands, you want to bet and raise to maximize the money in the pot.

Not raising with AA preflop seems to violate this general rule.

Perhaps a better rule would be I won't cap or 3-bet with AA preflop and on the flop. This compromise disguises your hand, to some extent, and earns you a little more preflop money.

So based on feel, how often and in what position or situation would you slow play AA???

[squiffy]

One point I forgot to make. By not raising with AA, you may also be foregoing many more additional preflop bets and flop bets if other players are loose, don't believe you have the AA, and cap it with KQs, 33, 44, JJ, 77, etc.

Sometimes playing a strong hand strongly from the beginning flushes out other strong hands and tells them that you will call their raises. So it encourages them to raise. Possibly building a bigger pot.

So how can we even begin to answer this very complex question.

[squiffy]

On the third hand, the conventional wisdom seems to be, you should not slowplay much, if at all, at low limits. And you should slowplay nut hands which will win, even if your opponent improves.

Whereas you should jam a strong hand which could very well finish second best if you get a lot of callers. Or force those loose callers to pay dearly for their incorrect calls.

On the other hand, I personally have bet and raised stronger hands which were slowplayed or timidly played. So I am torn on this one.

[jek187]

[ QUOTE ]
If we had 101 players who played identical poker. And followed 1 million hands played over 20 years. And player zero raised none of the time with AA, and player one raised 1% of the time with AA, and so on until player 100 who raises with AA 100% of the time -- who would have the most money?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming a typical Party 3/6 that we're throwing these players into: The player who raises preflop 100% will have the most money.

I would say that 99% would have the most, but I doubt the 1% of his raises just happen to coincide w/the perfect times to limp.

[Mike Haven]

in fact i was responding to your earlier comment to:

"When you hold AJ and the flop comes JT6 with 2 hearts, you raise if bet into, no fancy slowplaying, no worrying about looking predictable, raising is the right play in this typical low limit loose passive game 100% of the time"

with:

"Sorry I disagree with this statement. This can be mathematically disputed."

i must have misunderstood your meaning - i thought you meant that hand would not win as many times as it does - now i think you mean that you can win more money with it by not raising

i'm not sure that you can prove this mathematically but presumably there are odd occasions when you might - similarly, there are occasions when you lose more by not raising

with regard to another comment where the suggestion is that it is better to limp with AA rather than raise with it preflop, i would say that it is far better in the long run to increase preflop raising to include other hands if you find that your opponents are folding to your raises, rather than reducing raises on the AA - yes, it may seem irritating to win only the blinds with AA, but it also feels good to win the blinds with an uncontested KJs

[DarkKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, (usually), the games (low limit) I play in have people who will call with a four flush no MATTER how much you raise/bet!

[/ QUOTE ]

When this is the case why the heck wouldn't you raise at
every opportunity ?

[PokerKing]

[ QUOTE ]
in fact i was responding to your earlier comment to:

"When you hold AJ and the flop comes JT6 with 2 hearts, you raise if bet into, no fancy slowplaying, no worrying about looking predictable, raising is the right play in this typical low limit loose passive game 100% of the time"

with:

"Sorry I disagree with this statement. This can be mathematically disputed."

i must have misunderstood your meaning - i thought you meant that hand would not win as many times as it does - now i think you mean that you can win more money with it by not raising

i'm not sure that you can prove this mathematically but presumably there are odd occasions when you might - similarly, there are occasions when you lose more by not raising

with regard to another comment where the suggestion is that it is better to limp with AA rather than raise with it preflop, i would say that it is far better in the long run to increase preflop raising to include other hands if you find that your opponents are folding to your raises, rather than reducing raises on the AA - yes, it may seem irritating to win only the blinds with AA, but it also feels good to win the blinds with an uncontested KJs


[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, Mike.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lou Krieger wrote an article in Cardplayer or Pokerpages and Mike Caro also smooth calls all Blind hands. You may disagree with them but they have earned a living with Poker and are authors.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK lots of problems with this statement. I haven't read anything by LK, so I won't touch that. But I have read Caro's 12 days to HE success and nowhere does he say anything like what you imply. In fact I remember several things to the contrary but I don't really want to go look at it. Secondly Caro made a living playing stud and draw. Third even if he did make a living playing HE that doesn't mean everything he says is right. In fact he's published many things about HE that are inaccurate (even by his own admission). Fourth being an author is no qualification. What if two authors disagree? In any event S+M are giving advice that is way more profitable than either of those guys, and specifically say to raise in that situation. As does every poster on here I respect.

[ QUOTE ]
You can prove anything you want, I'm not stubborn. Matter of fact if you make me a better player I will be in your debt.


[/ QUOTE ]

I meant that the situation is so complex that there's no mathematical way to show what the best play is. There are too many variables that you can't easily quantify. If you want to improve your game don't trust me. Read all the books and come to your own conclusions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rob to me that is what make poker so great, the fact that it is debatable. Your earlier post had said that all of the authors disagree with me which so I named a couple.

I hope you aren't getting hot under the collar. I do believe everyone specially newcomers get a couple of views here. This in my opinion is much better discussion than the crap we've seen the last couple of days.

Now go make some profit before I send my buzzard after ya ass.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
When 83o in the big blind catches two pair don't come here crying. Raising with AA in a typical low limit game is the RIGHT MOVE ALWAYS.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I raise pre-flop into the BB on party he will call with 8-3off and I will have lost an extra small bet. Didn't know that you agreed with me.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]

So based on feel, how often and in what position or situation would you slow play AA???



[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the situation and opponents. But to say never is wrong in my opinion. (My goat's too)