Slow Playing

[thomastem]

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1 example is on the big blind where a raise doesn't thin the field.

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If I told you that you were going to be dealt AA every single time, what limit would you play at? 5-10 or 10-20?

Answer that question then tell me a raise with AA isn't worth it unless you can thin the field.

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Do they know I get A-A every time? So I get the blinds each and every hand because everyone folds whether I raise or not. $10-20 next.

[thomastem]

Squiffy,

People are saying always raise or always raise with 2 people in or always raise in the BB. At low limits I would guess most players notice a pre-flop raise. Most will put you on high suited connectors or high pairs. How do I figure that? Even at 2-4 everyone checks the flop to the pre-flop raiser. It could be a check/raise, fold or call. It is very rare that someone will bet into the pre-flop raiser. I will make more money if people bet into me on the flop.

I don't say always slowplay not even saying most of the time. If I believe someone will bet into me on the flop I call pre-flop If I believe I'm playing with call stations I raise Pre-flop. Not just A-A but high pairs. I will adjust this if I wish to thin the field or if my pre-flop raising or calling needs variance.

[Robk]

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"Just about every situation." I disagree with in the first answer...The second answer I completely disagree with.

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Well... you're wrong. We can argue and do simulations about this all night, and I still probably won't be able to "prove" to you that you're wrong. But every repected author and poster I've read disagrees with you, and that's proof enough for me.

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I just need 1 bet on the turn or river and I usually get much more

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1. What about the times you would have gotten those bets anyway?
2. What about those times opponents are induced to chase with hopeless hands because the pot is larger?

[thomastem]

Mathematically, at least, you should 2-bet from the BB with AA rather than checking and check raising on later. You have the best hand, you are almost certainly the player most likely to win. More players will pay you off preflop than would on the flop. You'll get less money in check-raising the flop, and the money will be entering the pot when your competition has a better idea of whether their draws will come in, so the number of callers will better correlate to your chance of losing.

If your opponents feel sure that the BB raise means you have AA, you may have a point. But aren't there other hands that can justify this raise? And even if there aren't, don't these raises happen in low limit all the time? I've seen hands as low as A-7s raise their own BB in 4-8.




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Mad,

We are playing at different tables, limits, or something. $3-$6 at party someone usually bets the flop even with a draw. If the players are that passive where the flop has to hit them hard (not the norm at Party) to bet I agree with you. If they raise pre-flop with garbage into my big pair this is a good thing. 2 bets and they have no idea what I have.

[Adde]

Ok, I know you guys never tilt [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], but nevertheless...

If you always raise preflop with AA you minimize your risk of going on tilt when someone outdraws you with trash he wouldn't have played if you had raised.

[thomastem]

Well... you're wrong. We can argue and do simulations about this all night, and I still probably won't be able to "prove" to you that you're wrong. But every repected author and poster I've read disagrees with you, and that's proof enough for me.

Lou Krieger wrote an article in Cardplayer or Pokerpages and Mike Caro also smooth calls all Blind hands. You may disagree with them but they have earned a living with Poker and are authors.

You can prove anything you want, I'm not stubborn. Matter of fact if you make me a better player I will be in your debt.
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I just need 1 bet on the turn or river and I usually get much more

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1. What about the times you would have gotten those bets anyway? <font color="blue"> If there are no agressive players I always raise.

</font> 2. What about those times opponents are induced to chase with hopeless hands because the pot is larger? <font color="blue"> Again aggressives will semi-bluff/bluff passives will check/call. If there are more passives I raise pre-flop and vice versa for agressives. </font>

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[Mike Haven]

i ran a few hands for your interest, thomastern

AcJs v JhTh6d

wins 80% against 1 (average hand would win 50%)
wins 54% against 3 (average hand would win 25%)
wins 32% against 6 (average hand would win 14%)

AcJs v JhTh6d 9h

wins 68% against 1
wins 35% against 3
wins 15% against 6

AcJs v JhTh6d Qh

wins 66% against 1
wins 32% against 3
wins 13% against 6

[thomastem]

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i ran a few hands for your interest, thomastern

AcJs v JhTh6d

wins 80% against 1 (average hand would win 50%)
wins 54% against 3 (average hand would win 25%)
wins 32% against 6 (average hand would win 14%)

AcJs v JhTh6d 9h

wins 68% against 1
wins 35% against 3
wins 15% against 6

AcJs v JhTh6d Qh

wins 66% against 1
wins 32% against 3
wins 13% against 6

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Ok Mr. Haven please tell me how you are applying this. I understand that thinning the field will mean you win more times with smaller pots and more people mean you win less pots but they are bigger.

Those % don't tell you where the bigger profit is on a given table with a given situation. My contention still is that pre-flop raise, even with A-A is a judgement call and not an automatic.

[Robk]

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Lou Krieger wrote an article in Cardplayer or Pokerpages and Mike Caro also smooth calls all Blind hands. You may disagree with them but they have earned a living with Poker and are authors.


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OK lots of problems with this statement. I haven't read anything by LK, so I won't touch that. But I have read Caro's 12 days to HE success and nowhere does he say anything like what you imply. In fact I remember several things to the contrary but I don't really want to go look at it. Secondly Caro made a living playing stud and draw. Third even if he did make a living playing HE that doesn't mean everything he says is right. In fact he's published many things about HE that are inaccurate (even by his own admission). Fourth being an author is no qualification. What if two authors disagree? In any event S+M are giving advice that is way more profitable than either of those guys, and specifically say to raise in that situation. As does every poster on here I respect.

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You can prove anything you want, I'm not stubborn. Matter of fact if you make me a better player I will be in your debt.


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I meant that the situation is so complex that there's no mathematical way to show what the best play is. There are too many variables that you can't easily quantify. If you want to improve your game don't trust me. Read all the books and come to your own conclusions.

[PokerKing]

When 83o in the big blind catches two pair don't come here crying. Raising with AA in a typical low limit game is the RIGHT MOVE ALWAYS.